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LS Swap to Early GTO - MY OPINION

103K views 244 replies 89 participants last post by  11th Indian 
#1 ·
This is my opinion, and just my opinion, in response to those who have done or are thinking of doing the modern day Chevy LS series small block engine swap into the first generation GTO "A-Body.":banghead: Being 55 years of age, I did not experience the "muscle car era" as it unfolded, but rather, reaped the benifits following that era in the late 1970's and early 1980's when these cars were somewhat worn out and abused, gas prices were going up, and they sold for cheap if they had not already been scrapped out. Pontiacs, and later the GTO, was my car of choice.:thumbsup:
The hi-performance car was not invented by Pontiac nor its engineers as they have always been around. When the first GTO was introduced as an option on the Lemans, it was innovative. But this innovation was more about creating a meaning for the GTO than the GTO itself. It was the advertising and marketing genius of Jim Wangers who took his vision of a "super car" and created that meaning. It was then Pontiac chief engineer John DeLorean who turned out the GTO based on a concept with no guarantees that this concept was going to work in practice.
The first 1964 GTO was built around the horsepower and torque of the Pontiac 389 engine. The engineers knew that this casting had the potential to be enlarged to 400, 421, 428, and 455 cubic inches. This engine, with its assorted horsepower and torque ratings was the GTO. Even those who were not GTO savvy knew enough to ask, 389 or 400?
The GTO was an icon of the muscle car era that needed no introduction as it brought to mind the vivid image of horsepower & speed. It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words and with the sight of a GTO, there were not only words, but also, an excitement of the senses as you listened to the rumble of the dual exhaust either at idle or rowing through the gears.
Being fortunate enough to own several GTO's and other Pontiac cars of that era, it was all about horsepower and the Pontiac engine under the hood. The factory engine on the street really did not need a lot of tweaking as there was never any problems putting down rubber or taking on a would be challenger in his Chevelle, Ford, Mopar, or AMC. One might simply fine tune the engine or add a tri-power, a Torker intake, a Holley carb, Mallory dual points, or headers to root out a few more horsepower without going into the engine. These add-ons seemed to work if one was so inclined. Money back then was as tight as it is today and parts that were seemingly cheap by todays standards were expensive. So the factory engine with all its factory horsepower and torque made the GTO desirable when matched against the more readily available small blocks installed in the "other" makes. Big blocks were not all that common with the exception of the Road Runners or Chargers and their 383's.
Fast forward to today and we have seen the recent introduction of the second generation Holden GTO and its corporate small block Chevy LS series engines. Once again, the image of the GTO is built around the engine, but the first generation GTO with its legendary Pontiac manufactured engine is not the same as the second generation GTO and its Chevy engine. It is the old apples and oranges comparison when viewing the old GTO with the new GTO......only the name is the same.:wink2:
As of late, the term "resto-mod" seems to have incorporated the approval of installing the later model LS Chevy small block engines into the engine bay of the earlier GTO. This is where I draw the line. I just want to snatch those GTO keys out of your hands, and tell you that you're just not yet responsible enough to own that GTO.:nono: There is a reverence unspoken that simply "is" and words cannot express. Either you get it, or you don't. Maybe its simply because I was there, because I lived through that tail-end of the muscle car era.:smile2:
As stated earlier, the GTO was built around the performance of the Pontiac engine. Chevy engines were installed in Canadian built Pontiacs and were given a completely different name, Beaumont. If you want to install an LS engine in your GTO, then buy a Canadian Beaumont. Unbelievably, I am even ok with the LS swap in a Lemans or Tempest, but not a GTO.:nonod: Would you install the Chevy LS engine in a Boss Mustang, Hemi Cuda, Buick GSX, Olds 442, or AMX? Install one in a Road Runner and pop the hood at a car show and let's see what kind of reactions you get.:eek2: The only reason anyone thinks it is cool is because they would not know the difference between a Model A engine and a Pontiac engine anyway. They simply think that all the chrome, polished aluminum, braided steel lines, and multi-colored do-dads is what its all about. But those of us who know our Pontiacs, shudder with agony and outstretch our arms to the heavens and shout out "why?":cryin:
I don't have a problem when it comes to body modifications, brake and suspension upgrades, transmission swaps, 18" rims, or interior changes. I'm even good with modifying the Pontiac engine anyway you like, old school or with contemporary electronics and fuel injection:bannana:.......but a GTO has to have a Pontiac block using factory or aftermarket fitted Pontiac parts -no exceptions.
So if you ask me what I think of the Chevy LS small block swap in a first generation GTO, you will probably watch my nostrils flare out, my face contort and redden, my body twitch, and hear the soliloquy of a few choice words escape my vocal chords that will inevitably let you know of my disapproval. And you won't hear me weenie out and say, "well its your car and you can build it any way you want." If it's a muscle car era GTO, it's gotta be Pontiac powered..........or just give me the keys. Pontiac built excitement, not Chevy powered muscle car era GTO's.:nonod:
 
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#58 ·
I would do what I please most people bring up good points but at the end of the day its like most have said all opinions I would do what I want when I want it.. any classic car at that if I want power ill get it from the modern ls blocks im the type who cares less about keeping it original if the interior isnt or suspension isnt then whats the big deal about the motor im a drag guy so what ever is more efficient at delivering whp ill use could.. be chevy motor pontiac .. oldsmobile I couldn't care less j personally think old stangs for example with a gm motor best decision some 1 could make ahahaha imho
 
#59 ·
yes...skillz...I think the guys with the old Fords all powered by Chevy feel the same way...a buddy was building up a Model A pick up and I suggested a built flat head but he got a SBC and went that route...at the end of the day does it ruin it...many people think not...

I like the LS2 in my '06 GTO...we with the newer cars get this reaction many times (if not here) about our versions...not a real GTO...sure it is...

would I like a classic GTO with classic GTO power...sure would...would I be happy with an older GTO with an LS motor...yup...

Bill
 
#60 ·
I have a '65 Tempest that I got with a blown motor and no numbers matching. Working on a restomod incarnation of that car now.

Having done an LS1 swap in my Jeep, and seeing the results first hand while doing some serious rock crawling, can say from an engineering standpoint there are many benefits to this swap vs. the standard engine. Crawling up really steep rocks at severe angles being the first thing that pops into mind.

However, if I had a numbers matching GTO, would not have gone this route. In the end, I think the really cool thing is that we are all able to express ourselves in our rides. Whether you want new in an old shell, classic restoration, etc. the car and the end result is your expression of what you want.

BTW: This is a Mast Motorsports L99 Blacklabel with a 4L60E. On pump gas, dynoed at 612. Just drove it a week ago for the first time since I started this project 5 years ago. It is pretty fun to drive. Oh, and to really cross the line, has a Ridetech air suspension. Will have to let you know how it handles, don't have it aligned or the suspension tuned yet.
 
#61 ·
Please leave it Pontiac

I am a 53 year old who grew up as Jim did catching the tail end of the Muscle Cars. I was always a GM Man, in particular a Chevy Guy. I had a 68 Chevy Nova back in the day. However while in High School during the late 70"s, my good friend had a 65 GTO. We both attended an Auto Mechanics Training Class during 11th and 12th grade. Commonly referred to as Vo-Tech. This was Mon thru Friday in the mornings. We were allowed to drive there as long as we had our parents permission. So, one day he would drive and the next day i would drive. He was an excellent mechanic and would change it seemed week to week what engine trans. combo he had in the Goat, He would have a 428 with an auto trans, and then he would have a 455 with a four speed, etc. The one thing he always had was respect from all the other guys. After all he had the GTO. I vowed that I would have one one day. That day came in 2011 when I located one about 5 to 6 miles from my house. It had been sitting in the garage of the second owner of the car for close to 30 years. I went to look at the car and knew right away that I had to have it. It was a rust free 60,000 mile 65 GTO Post Car. It had a 70 HO 455 in it with a 66 Tripower set up and a Turbo 400 trans. Although it did not have the original 389 four speed it was all PONTIAC just the same.
This car had one of those old stories behind it. Apparently way back in the day, the car was stolen from the original owner and had the drive train removed and then was left abandoned. Once the car was found, the insurance company paid the original owner off for the value of the car as the owner did not want it after that. The guy i bought it from was friends with the insurance agent and he bought the car and kept it ever since up until I bought it from him. Once i bought the car and started telling folks about it, I got the same response from many of them which was, you bought so and so's car? Wow thats a piece of Southern Maryland History. they would say i remember that car eating up chevy's, mopars, etc. back in the day.
I said all that to say this:
This car was special and all GTO's are special. When ever I drive my car anywhere I get the head turmers, the thumbs up, and if i stop somewhere you can believe I will be in more than one conversation with peiople who are drawn to the car. Once I pop the hood and let them look under, they are impressed that it is a PONTIAC engine and trans, The Tri power blows them away and many of them say I cant believe you have the Tri Power as they were always problematic. I tell them I have gone through all three Carb's and they work great. All the attention I get is due to the fact that everyone refers to the GTO as the MUSCLE CAR. The fact that although not the original Power plant in the car, It is PONTIAC. Unfortunately GM discontinued the PONTIAC which in my opinon is a shame. All the more reason to keep the surviving PONTIAC'S, all PONTIAC.
 
#63 ·
If for whatever reason you had a GTO with matching numbers, by all means keep it together if that's what you want to do. If you don't, don't. It is still YOUR car. Stop worrying about what other people think and do what makes you happy. Some people have a lot of emotions and memories tied up in what used to be (nothing necessarily wrong with that).

Like I have seen some people write, there are those of us who grew up with the LS and that is 'our' engine. I don't know that there has be any engine as prolific on a global scale that is so easily customizable to your wants and needs (be it rock crawling, auto cross, road courses, drag, even boats!) Parts are everywhere and innumerable builders/hobbyists are well-versed in what is one of the most prolific engines to date (and for good reason). To sum up many here, to each his own.
 
#67 ·
Sorry Pontiac Jim I dissagree .
PMDGUY , I could not have said it better !!
Im 58 and owned some nice old original muscle cars...
Personally I would love to get my hands on a 66 or 67 and upgrade brakes, suspension and drop in a LS.
The newer technology is faster and safer
 
#68 ·
My 2 cents... If the car is original, numbers matching, leave it that way. I like restored cars that look original but I also like the cars that have been modernized. I'm not going to tell someone they are wrong or bad for putting an LS engine in their Pontiac because it's their car. I might be sad inside if I find out the car was numbers matching complete when they started changing out stuff and especially if they didn't keep the original parts.

To each their own.
 
#69 ·
In my opinion, putting an LS motor in a classic GTO is no different than swapping a small block chevy into a classic GTO. for those who insist LS=GM, therefore its okay, need I remind you the first gen small block chevy became the GM corporate V8. That doesn't make it a Pontiac. As for late model GTOs having LS motors, well those werent really Pontiac's either. I fell for it, and bought a black 06. but in time, I realised It was just a rebadged import, that should have never received the iconic and revered GTO name. Purely bad marketing from a division that was run into the ground by such decisions. The Aztek comes to mind here. No, real Pontiac GTOs deserve real Pontiac engines. And by the way, published numbers seem to bear no relation to actual driving experience. My 70 GTO 400 4-speed felt stronger, faster, and infinitely more fun than my 6.0 Holden, err, "GTO". The '70 snapped your head back and pinned you to the seat in a way the modern and "more powerful" 6.0 LS powered Holden monaro, uh, I mean "GTO", never could. No comparison in the driving experience. Yeah, the numbers were better with the new car. On paper, it wins everywhere. But the actual driving experience? No comparison. The '70 kicks the 06s ass. Real Pontiac V8s were, and are, special engines from a special division that died long, long before GM finally pulled the plug.
 
#70 ·
LS Swap

I am 60 and pretty much old school when it comes to muscle cars. Been playing with them since 1968 and like many others that have chimed in here was fortunate enough to own several from stockers to borderline race cars. Regarding LS swaps into GTO's or for that matter any muscle car era car, the generation gap is at play here. Young guys for the most part were not exposed to the older cars but they do understand the new. Putting an LS in a GTO completely changes the personality of the car. What I am saying is that the car will no longer be what it originally was. Driveability and reliability can be improved by leaps and bounds if the swap is done correctly and tuning by laptop can be a possibility. To each his own. In some cases an LS swap can be the path of least resistance. Modern factory reliability plus an overdrive transmission. An LS swap done correctly to include a properly designed fuel system will deliver modern driveability and the advantage of using factory parts. What is lost is the nostalgia factor. On a hot summer day when the interior of my 70 GTO is getting pretty toasty as the heat off the headers on my modified 462 comes up through the console and floorboards it would be an interesting experience to be able to drive the same car LS powered with the AC on! The LS car would be more comfortable, quieter and much more emission friendly. You can't really compare them. Old school means how things were back in the day. Like I said, to each his own. I don't believe in making something old into something new. When I want modern comforts and driveability in a high performance car I hop in my 96 LT4 Corvette and think to myself regarding muscle cars "That was then and this is now" A song lyric from Sly and the Family stone also says it well "Different strokes for different folks". Whatever your choice, enjoy the hobby and please don't choose to do an LS swap on a numbers matching ride............ Just my 2 cents here.
 
#71 ·
Here's a dumb question:

Has anyone ever gotten an old school muscle car engine to compete with the fuel economy of an LS engine? I've often wondered why that is...

With all the choices out there I'm really stuck with the idea of using an LS series engine for my long planned restomod project - probably an LSA from a wrecked CTS-V.


Nick
 
#72 ·
LS2 in 65 GTO

I respect every ones opinion about what ever they want to do with there GTO'S. I have a gto that I put 30 k on in five years. I use it all the time. It has an LS2, T56 tranny, ford nine inch, baer brakes, global west suspension, Foose wheels, etc. I get 20 MPH, and never did anything except drive it and change the oil. And its a real GTO. My car will out handle, stop better, Go faster, get better gas milage and cruise at 70 all day, then an old GTO... If you want to use to car, this is the way to go....:lol::lol:
 
#73 ·
Let's take this a step further, I am restoring a 70 Judge that has severe frame damage is it OK with the purists to put a 69 Chevelle frame under it as long as I use a Pontiac engine?

for the engine I have a 72 Pontiac 455, and wanted a reliable street-able 600 HP with out cutting the hood, so I am seriously considering a supercharged LS-3. The LS engine is far superior to any old engine platform, and is dominating the modern muscle car era.
 
#74 ·
There is no right or wrong answer. You own the car do what you want... Having said that I believe the motor is the Heart and Soul of the car. My 70 came off the assembly line and the first time I started it I new it was mine. I am no purest every part of the car was upgraded and rebuilt as the years went by. I kid with my best friend the only thing still Pontiac in the drivetrain is the block (and the flywheel bolts). So the answer is how and why are you attached to a certain car? But for me when I start my Pontiac I am 18 all over again (and I can still row some gears), and its Heart and Soul is still Pontiac!!!!
 
#75 ·
No right or wrong answer to this one as far as I am concerned. With my 1965, I wrestled with the same issues, and landed on it in a different way.

My ’65 is not an especially interesting car, numbers matching PHS verified GTO, with the base 389 4bbl, two speed automatic and factory air. Original CA black plate car, but other than that nothing special.




So I was tempted by the LS option.

Also in my fifties, I remember well the “good old days” of running Pontiacs and all the rest of the true factory original muscle cars back in the day. And I loved it. Truth is, although fast in their day (compared to what was available) a 360 HP 4 speed car that has marginal brakes, terrible handling and so-so reliability by today’s standards is not much of a performance match for an average BMW or even a Lexus today.

Most if the appeal is simply nostalgia, and for me anyway the reality does not really match the memories.

I am troubled by this nostalgia. Although I “get it” and totally respect the Pontiac brand and what it stood (and still stands) for, I am reminded of other marques, and how they have reconciled this nostalgia. I know some Ferrari guys, my age, and their passion is also all factory original with no mods allowed- at all. These guys wax poetic about the “twelve cylinder” cars as opposed to the V8’s, have endless arguments about “Enzo” era cars versus the newer models- bottom line, these guys rarely drive their cars and certainly do not work on them themselves. They have the same look down the nose perspective- with a few extra zeroes added to the price. They are afraid of devaluing their cars by actually driving them, and if they did actually break down they would have no idea how to work on it.

I think this is where it goes eventually, nostalgia buffs simply reliving the past. Museum curators if you will. The Pontiac hobby is by no means at this point now, but I can see it going there if the only thing that is valued is ‘numbers matching’ originality. I respect people that restore Pontiacs down to the chalk marks and hose clamps- but that is not a hobby that interests me.

While I acknowledge the GTO marque and everything it stands for, I have no interest personally in a poor handling 14 second quarter mile car with marginal brakes-no matter its pedigree. If someone feels an LS swap is in the cards, I begrudge no one, and certainly do not look down my nose at such a swap. What really matters is that you did it yourself, and that you can work on it yourself, and that you built it yourself- that is what separates us from the Ferrari and Porsche “tool polishers”, not the year or style of the engine block casting.

For me, after much soul searching I decided against an LS swap, and went with a 461 stroker. I built an entirely modern chassis with Z06 brakes, modern EFI on a Pontiac engine, crank fired ignition, modern air conditioning, and a modern overdrive automatic.

I am preserving the original, numbers matching intact chassis/motor/drivetrain, if a future owner wants to swap out all this goodness for the 1965 original version, why they will be welcome to it. In the meantime, I will be enjoying a non-numbers matching Pontiac with modern systems and great performance- and not likely to be dispatched by some kid in a leased BMW.

Not right or wrong, just another way of looking at it.







 
#77 ·
I have just finished a two year restoration project on my 1969 GTO. I have gone through many trials and tribulations around the engine rebuild. My goal was to generate 500 HP with an original Pontiac 400 engine. This took a a lot of tweaking. I could have achieved this more easily and more cheaply by dropping in a LS engine. But this just didn't seem like the right thing to do a classic GTO. To me dropping in an LS engine is akin to putting on low rider wheels. So I kept the original Pontiac 400 block, and enhanced it with new heads, a custom grind cam and a new carburetor. I am of the view that these are the things I would have done back in the day if I was "souping" up my engine. While my classic GTO is not a matching numbers car, it is still a classic GTO and NOT a hybrid which would be the case with a LS engine.
 
#78 ·
LS* motors

My Lemans has a 428 from a 69' Gran Prix, I would never drop a 327SBC or an LS engine in it, I would keep it a Pontiac ofr some kind.

BUT, while I dont agree with the LS swaps into 60's or 70's Pontiacs, each person can put whatever engine that they choose into their car, same goes for suspension, transmissions, interiors, etc.

Each car is a representation of the owners vision, creativity, etc. I put a 57' Chevy sideview mirror on my Lemans (which has a GTO hood and valance) because I thought it looked cooler.

IMO

Eric
 
#79 ·
Since we are all opinionated...here's my 2 cents. Getting down to the root of hot rodding, it's all about swapping parts, making things fit that weren't meant to fit....engine swapping is at the heart of all that. We have been doing that since the dawn of the car. We want them to go faster and be different from the next car guy. If we didn't, we would all be driving white no named cars that were exactly the same. We are all different, it's your car, do what makes you happy, you are the one that is going to be driving it. That's why there are so many choices for the same part out there. If you don't like what I do to my car, oh well....it's mine. Go build your own. Getting back to an LS swap, they are cheaper than building a poncho motor and a proven good, powerful engine choice, that you can beat the snot out of. I should know I have a Poncho powered Lemans and a LS powered late model Goat. Remember we are all united in being car people and should embrace that, instead of kicking each other in the shins. Just my opinion.
 
#80 ·
Relax

No doubt, from 1955 to 1981 the Pontiac Division of General Motors manufactured its own engines. And I understand your point on the LSx. Fortunately I grew up during that time to witness, live and enjoyed the muscle car era, and love all those Pontiac's, Old's, and Chevy muscle. But arguably, at the end of the day - they are all GM vehicles produced in separate divisions including Holden. Did you know the Tempest used a Buick aluminum motor but later was replaced by the 389. In fact many of these Pontiac first gen motors were used in GMC trucks also. So in retrospective, would you put that GMC engine into a first gen GTO? Yep. Why because it's ok or I am forced to put in an LSx because the first gen motors are hard to find, very expensive, and would not match any of the numbers the vehicle originally came in with. So I am a GM muscle car enthusiast and experienced the variety of these beautiful beasts and I regret every time I see one at a car show regret selling so many of these lovely beasts. I guess so that I may afford and enjoy and afford the next new beauty coming out of GM. Folks back then couldn't wait for the new line up especially the styles coming out of GM in August. Enjoy and Relax!:seeya:
 
#82 ·
OK .... here's the senior citizen approach. I'm 76, Jim Wangers is a personal friend and I too patrolled Woodward from the TeePee to Ted's Drive-in in "the day". That being said, if it were my goal to finish-out an original GTO to my personal taste that car would be powered by an LS engine, in front of the new 6-speed automatic, with a chassis similar to that revealed by Darbikrash. And as he has done (mindful of next owner's potential desire), preserving the original bits. My car, my money, my choice. AND my $.02. 'Bye.
 
#83 ·
I, personally, would never change out the 389 in my '65 survivor for anything other than Poncho power of like kind and only if the original block was destroyed. A GTO should stay as original as possible IMHO. BUT, to each their own. Whatever cranks your tractor fellas. It's your car so do what you like to it. I have a 1970 Monte Carlo that has a big block from a 72 Suburban in it, so I understand. If it was an SS Monte Carlo I would have left it alone. I like to leave the rare ones like they came from the factory.
 
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