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Finally heard back from the machinst

8K views 43 replies 13 participants last post by  extinctmake 
#1 ·
Well I finally contacted the machine shop regarding the cleaning and magafluxing of my engine.

I am disappointed because I waited a month and a half to hear from him and it turns out it was already done. Why didn’t he call me when he was finished? He told me it cleaned up fine and checked out good with no cracks. He did mention that the cylinder walls can’t be cleared with just a .030 bore, which means I will have to bore the cylinders .060 and use a standard size 400 (4.12 bore) forged, dished piston.

He then asked me what I wanted to do.

I mentioned I was looking for a primarily stock, street engine that looks correct on the outside with the necessary changes to enable it to operate on 91 octane BP gas.

Then he stressed I can’t bring any parts. I will have to buy his parts. I really don’t have anything other than a new set of cam bearings and some slightly used Crane rocker arms, valve springs, and screw-in rocker arm studs/poly lock nuts. I asked what his markup was on parts and he just said, “it’s fair.” I know he uses Diamond pistons and he wants to use Eagle rods. He also pushed for a roller cam when I had dropped the engine off a month and a half ago.

I told him I was going to send him an e-mail detailing what I am looking for and how this engine will be used. I have no idea what his shop rate is. I guess once I let him know what my goals are for this engine, he might reply with a parts and labor figure.

I am a little disappointed in that any parts I am interested in using could be shot down. I don’t know what brands he uses. I am interested in using some specific items (for example the BOP one-piece rear main seal) and I will outline that in my e-mail to him.

I want a reliable engine that runs at least as well as it did originally but now using pump gas. I need an engine that doesn’t leak, doesn’t ping, doesn’t overheat, and doesn’t make noises it shouldn’t. I also want to keep all the original, correct ancillary items like the oil pan, push rod cover, timing chain cover, valve covers, intake manifold, AFB carb, and correct ignition. It needs to look OEM on the outside. I’m not trying to wring out the last bit of power out of it.

I will tell him I don’t want, because I don’t need, a roller cam. Especially if he procures it and marks up the price above the already $1,100 they cost in the first place. I don't need to build a $7,000/$8,000 engine to fulfill the need I have for my car.

I will post my e-mail I send him to get your opinion.

The worst thing that can happen is I will just pay him for services rendered and collect my engine and plan on going elsewhere to have it built.
 
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#2 ·
I don't like the sounds of what you are saying. If it were me, I'd pull the engine, pay him what you owe for his services, and look elsewhere just because he wants you to purchase the replacement parts through him at a "fair" mark-up.

My guess is that he is also protecting himself when some guys either get the wrong/mismatched parts or insist on using cheaper/inexpensive pieces that may not hold up and then he will be blamed for a bad engine and not the cheap/inexpensive parts.

Right now, it will not hurt to hear him out BUT it is your damn engine and you have the say so to have him install any brand/type part you want - not him. He may prefer to work with one part/brand over another, but it ultimately is your choice to use the brand/parts you want.

Let him give you a price based on what you are looking for. This will require you to know what you want for your engine. Have him break it down into components, ie heads & shortblock and provide you with an itemized list of parts, machining costs like bore/hone block, check/square block deck, check/align hone mains (if needed), fit/install pistons/rings, cam bearings/install cam bearings, machine/install hardened seats, 3-angle valve job, valves/springs/retainers/seals, mill head pedestals and fit screw-in studs, etc.. The pan, timing cover, distributor, fuel pump, valve covers, flywheel, harmonic balancer, intake & carb are items you supply him or will add-on once you get your engine home - he will not/should not supply any of this.

There is a lot of machine work & labor involved if you have a shop do all your work. It is not cheap, so don't be surprised. If you simply have him bore/fit pistons & balance the rotating assembly, install the cam bearings and freeze plugs, and you install the pistons as well as gap rings and hang the rods (if using full floating pins), and you assemble the shortblock yourself, you can save a lot of money - but you have to know what you are doing and have the tools to do it, ie engine stand, ring filer, ring compressor, dial indicators, etc..

So again, don't like what he has said about you can't supply the parts, but I would also see what he hits you up for a price tag and then make your decision from there. My guess is that the engine may fall between $4,000-$5000 to rebuild/assemble. Here are some numbers just to use as a reference. Never used them, can't endorse them either. : Pontiac Performance Crate Engines
 
#3 ·
Yes Jim I agree. I was taken aback over the machinist's parts edict. I can appreciate his wanting to avoid any liability caused from inferior parts, but he was also trying to sell me H.O. exhaust manifolds and an aftermarket timing cover.

Anyway, I am going to post my e-mail about what I'm looking for in an engine build from him. I hope I am not droning too long here:


Hi Chuck,
I am glad that the engine I brought to you cleaned up and the results of magafluxing show no cracks or damage.

I am not surprised that you deemed the cylinder walls can’t be cleared with just a .030 bore, which means I will have to bore the cylinders .060 and use a standard size 400 (4.12xx bore) forged, dished piston. The cylinder walls looked to be in bad condition. I figure you’d need to bore/hone block, check/square block deck, check/align hone mains (if needed), fit/install pistons/rings, cam bearings/install cam bearings, etc.

I mentioned I was looking to build a primarily stock, street engine that looks correct on the outside with the necessary changes to enable it to operate on 91 octane BP gas. This is the numbers-matching engine to my car. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t have taken on this project.

You mentioned I can’t bring any parts and I will have to buy parts from you. I really don’t have anything other than a new set of Clevite 77 cam bearings and some slightly used Crane rocker arms, valve springs, and screw-in rocker arm studs/poly lock nuts. I also bought some new E-Loy exhaust valves on ebay some years back thinking I’d have hardened valve seats installed in my cylinder heads. But it sounds like we might use stainless steel (Ferrea?) valves instead anyway. If I don’t use these parts for this engine, I won’t ever use them. If they are not right for my application, then I understand, but if they can be used, I’d rather put them to use than toss them in a scrap metal bin. I can understand that you likely want to make sure parts don’t become a culprit of any sort of engine failure.

Some of the parts I am interested in using is the BOP one-piece rear main seal and steel/rubber oil pan gasket. Butler offers these. I am really concerned about oil leaks, particularly the rear main seal and oil pan because it means engine removal to repair these leaks. I also like the thought of using a Melling standard volume (60psi) oil pump.

I want a reliable engine that runs at least as well as it did originally, but now using pump gas. I need an engine that doesn’t leak, doesn’t ping, doesn’t overheat, burn a bunch of oil, and doesn’t make noises it shouldn’t. I also want to keep all the original, correct ancillary items like the oil pan, push rod cover, timing chain cover, valve covers, intake manifold, AFB carb, and correct ignition right down to the repro date-coded ignition wires. It needs to look OEM on the outside. The alterations will have to be exclusive to the inside of the engine.
I have a duplicate engine currently in my car now, so if I can’t use the timing cover, oil pan, pushrod cover, etc. I can use the ones from the engine in my car.

A run-down of the car this engine will propel: 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible. It has a 3.23:1 axle ratio, a Muncie 4-speed transmission. I use the correct Carter AFB carburetor on the correct cast iron intake manifold. It uses the correct exhaust manifolds. The engine will use the correct Delco points distributor. I’d like to find somebody who has an old-school distributor machine and re-curve the distributor. The engine I have in the car now has a re-curved distributor. The builder of that engine re-curved it.

Based on what you have told me I am figuring you will bore the cylinders .060 to allow standard size Diamond dished/forged pistons. You mentioned I should not use the stock rods (even with ARP rod bolts) and substitute Eagle forged rods. I don’t know what rings and bearings you use. It’s a given the expansion plugs and oil plugs will be replaced. I assume the crank is good and will be turned .010/.010. What else do you recommend for the crankshaft?

As for the cylinder heads, I don’t know if this is true that if stainless steel valves are used, hardened valve seats are not necessary. I’m sure you have some insight on this topic. Initially I figured on having hardened seats installed and that is why I got those E-Loy valves. I will embrace your judgement on which direction to go. Maybe you will tell me to use both stainless valves and hardened valve seats.

I would like to think you prefer to replace the valve guides opposed to knurling. Are bronze guides the way to go? I assume the heads would receive a three-angle valve job.

My cylinder heads have press-in rocker arm studs. I do have a set of Crane screw-in studs. Some say press-in rocker arm studs can be pinned to keep them from working out. Or would it be best to go ahead and mill head pedestals and use screw-in studs?

I know you advocate using a roller valve train, but I think that is overkill for my application and frankly I think it is too expensive. I’d rather use that money towards machine shop labor. I have some those Crane rocker arms and other upper valve train parts I mentioned. However, I am aware that PWS and Comp Cams sells 1.52 ratio roller-tipped rocker arms for about the same cost as the stamped steel factory type replacements. Again, I don’t know what kind of measurable gains I will realize using roller rocker arms since I am going to run a small carburetor, no headers, no MSD-type ignition, etc.

The flat tappet camshaft I have in mind is the Pontiac H.O. version that is better known as the 068. Melling makes a quality clone of this cam. Another popular cam used on street Pontiacs is the Summit #2801 cam. It is very comparable to the 068, but with about 10-15 percent more lift. I know Summit doesn’t make any parts, so I assume a company like Melling probably makes it for Summit. I am aware I will need to use motor oil with a high concentration of ZDDP or use the ZDDP additive. It won’t be a problem since I don’t drive the car enough to warrant more than one oil change a year.

I know I will also need some odds and ends. I have some of the other pieces to the engine. I have the cam thrust plate and many of the fasteners. I saw that Butler offers an engine bolt kit and other items like the thrust plate that will likely be a good choice.

I don’t know what you have in mind for gaskets. Do you think a different head gasket thickness will have to be considered to achieve a low enough compression ratio? Do you think the block should be zero-decked? The heads have small combustion chambers and I understand that the published 65cc figure for them could be incorrect. I figure you probably measure the chamber volume before deciding whether to deck the block or use a thicker head gasket.
To risk from droning on too much further, I will leave my engine discussion here. I like the idea of exchanging e-mails because we can refer to e-mails to make sure nothing is overlooked.

I don’t know much about your shop rate and the brand of parts you use. Maybe you just provide a flat rate estimate, parts and labor lumped together, for all I know. I’m sure you will shed light on all I have inquired and then some.

Thanks Chuck. I look forward to hearing from you.
 
#7 ·
I just went through this whole process extinctmake, if you were rebuilding a Chevy you could get away with ~4k but since it's a Pontiac it will be more... I can't stress enough GET IT IN WRITING! This particular guy probably won't but to protect yourself and your pocket book GET IT IN WRITING. Also, as you've already experience communication is not good with a lot of these guys which makes sense as their job is building engines not communications... I hope it all works out for you. Dan
 
#6 ·
I would go for a .040" overbore and a set of dished Ross Pistons. I posted in your other thread. You may want to contact Paul Carter of Koerner Racing Engines (GTOFreek) on the Ames/Performance years forum. He is a stellar Pontiac engine builder/machinist located in AZ, and a go-to guy. Now is the time to do all the research and cover your bases, like you seem to be doing. You do NOT want to spend thousands and have to do it over again, or end up with a lackluster engine. My two cents.............
 
#8 ·
Geeteeohguy, I still have a printed copy of your post about how you helped a friend build the 389 in his ’65 GTO. I am trying to do that at a slightly lesser scale due to my using a smaller AFB carburetor. The machinist told me my cylinders cannot be bored .030 and a .060 bore is needed. I hope he isn’t telling me that so he can use standard-size 400 pistons. He wants to use Diamond forged pistons with a dish to lower the compression. He doesn’t care for Ross pistons.

Dan, I agree that Chevrolets are less costly to build. However, I am not trying to win a race. I am looking for a stock rebuild with a cam upgrade. The pistons and the Eagle rods the machinist recommends is the expensive part. I would like to at least achieve my goal within a $4,000 to $5,000 range.

I am concerned that I haven’t gotten a price. The machinist won’t allow me to bring any parts and I do have some pieces I already have that would go to waste if I don’t use them. He says his markup on parts is “fair.” He has also told me he pretty much puts roller cams in all the engines he builds. I don’t want to spend money on things I really don’t need. A roller cam is one of those things.

I am not in a hurry to build this engine, but it has been at the machine shop for two months. I took it in for a clean and mag and to see if I had useable cores. My communication with this guy has been scant. I sent him an e-mail explaining what I’m looking for. I haven’t heard back. I picked this shop only because I have been convinced to take my engine to a shop that can build a Pontiac engine. This shop was referenced in the How to build Max Performance Pontiac V8s book by Rocky Rotella.

My neighbor is a retired machinist. He has his own little shop in his garage. He builds everything from Allis Chalmers engines, Model T engines, and domestic V8s for racing and street use. A lot of people in the local car/race community take engines to him. He’d have my engine now if I didn’t take it where it has been since early February. I know my neighbor could handle the task between what he knows and what I can convey to him based on information I have acquired (including from this site from you great guys). With my neighbor, I could get more involved building the engine and I could also get my own parts.

If I don’t hear back from this machine shop, I think I will contact him to let him know I will pick up my engine and pay him for services rendered. I think he is signaling to me that he doesn’t want me for a customer. I am also hoping this could be a project I'd actually have fun doing rather than it becoming a dreadful life draining chore.

I take your opinions seriously and I really appreciate all of them.
 
#9 ·
I think the idea of your neighbor sounds real good! It sounds like he would let you help with the build and choose your parts while inputting if he feels its a bad choice. Importantly is that you enjoy this engine build. Rocky's dude sounds like a micro-manager....not good. Just my 2 cents.
 
#10 ·
"...The worst thing that can happen is I will just pay him for services rendered and collect my engine and plan on going elsewhere to have it built."


From what I've read, this is exactly what I'd do. I personally would not do business with a guy with his attitude.
 
#11 ·
Yeah, I hope I’m not being out of line or inpatient.

It’s been two months and I’ve had two conversations with the machinist. Both were short and neither seemed very cordial. I felt like I was bothering him. He didn’t seem like he wanted to hear what I was looking for. So much for the customer being “right.” I am very open minded and I want to do this job right.

My only drawback is I’m not after a very exciting or high tech/profile engine build, that will withstand 800 H.P. or nitrous. I am looking to rebuild my engine stock (with a cam upgrade) with the intent to allow it to run on lower octane gas and that is, admittedly, not exciting.

I at least want to get a bid from him and hear what he recommends. I sent an e-mail outlining what I am looking for. I would think by now he would contact me and tell me what he can do and for what cost.

I will wait a little longer, but by Easter I will either have a plan in place with him or I will have gotten my mess of cast iron back.
 
#12 ·
I'm in a hurry and it's early so I'll be short and sweet: WHY doesn't the machinist like Ross Pistons? My feeling (and I do automotive for a living and have for going on 40 years) is that the machinist has a connection for 'his' pistons, they are cheaper and more profitable, and only available in 400 standard bore, or .060" for your 389. He is trying to cut a corner and at the same time, maximize his profit. You will end up with lesser pistons and a block that can not be rebuilt again. I strongly recommend you use another machinist. Did you call contact Paul Carter of Koerner Racing Engines? Not necessarily to use, but to simply inquire. I don't like the information your getting from your guy, and have been down this road before many times. It never seems to end well for the customer.
 
#13 ·
Geeteeohguy, when I took my engine to him for the “clean and mag” we talked about parts and when I mentioned Ross pistons he replied Ross pistons are loud.

He also told me he had not installed a flat tappet cam in an engine in years. He mentioned last using one for a 1950s Cadillac engine he built. He recommended a roller cam, which I feel I do not need for my application.

Like many on this site, he too condemned using the factory rods stating the rods are the weak link in Pontiac V8s. He uses Eagle rods. The Eagle rods I found on the Eagle site are over $700 and are recommended for engines pushing 800 H.P. and up. Overkill for what I need.

Right now, rods, pistons, and cams are the furthest thing from my mind. It’s easy to think that way when the machine shop never calls or replies to my e-mail in the two -plus months my engine has been in his shop. I had to call him to find out what was going on. I waited a month so not to be pushy. When I called he told me it was done and checked fine…..then why didn’t he call me to tell me that? If I had not called, would I still be waiting to hear about something that has been done for two months already?

He did get right on me when I mentioned I had some parts I might want to use that I can’t bring any parts. When I asked what his parts markup was he replied, “it’s fair.” I still have no idea what his shop rate is, what his markup is, or any estimate on what this will cost. I don’t want to come across as being cheap, but I’m not made out of money and what I’m looking for to suit my needs is not extravagant. I am looking at restoring my engine with a cam upgrade (maybe a Spott's 068) and get it to run on 91 octane while remaining numbers correct. I have saved up some cash and have my other GTO to sell to cover most of the expense for this project.

I’d like to be more involved with this project to make it fun as well. I don’t think I should be kept in the dark on what things will cost, how things will get done, and what brand or kind of parts will be used. I don’t want to end up paying eight grand for a $4,000 to $5,000 engine.

I lined up a friend’s engine stand. I think I am going to go ahead and call this guy and tell him I will come and pick up my engine and pay him his fee for the “clean and mag.” I’ve waited many years to build this engine and put it back in the car it was built with. What’s another few months going to hurt?

Yeah, and I will contact that Koerner Racing Engines for some insight of what I want to do.

Thanks yet again Geeteeohguy.
 
#14 ·
Great decision, EM. I have not experienced Ross pistons being noisy. True, all forged pistons can be noisier when cold than cast pistons, but I have never found this to be even noticeable, and I run forged pistons in EVERYTHING. I also run flat tappet camshafts in EVERYTHING. You DO NOT need to go roller. Trust me, it's over-rated. And I've seen plenty of roller parts failures, too. The trick is to get a GOOD USA made flat tappet cam and lifters. Not off-shore, non-hardened-out of specification parts. Many, many cheap, off-the-shelf pistons are available for the 400 Pontiac. None are available for the 389. It is very common, unfortunately, for people to bore out a 389 so that it can accommodate the cheap and readily available pistons. The only winner here is the machinist. Glad you are moving on with somebody else. You can have a great running 389 for under 4k or less if you do the homework.....
 
#15 · (Edited)
Well my experience at my chosen machine shop has taken a turn…..for the better.

A couple of weeks ago I went to check on my engine with the prospect of just getting it back. I took in in to see if it was re-buildable. A clean & mag. I went to the shop and it was ready to go. He was working on a couple of marine Chevy big blocks on his dyno. We talked about the condition of the engine and it was good. He told me a .030 bore won’t clean it up. It will need to go .060. I wasn’t surprise because the engine sat in the car in a field for years with one head removed and water had gotten in the cylinders. Some of the pistons were rusted in the cylinders and it was difficult to take it apart.

Then it got puzzling. He charged me $364. The quote when I took it in was $300. It was $64 more because he went ahead and turned the crank. He said the Arma Steel crank was good. It only needed .010 off the mains and rods. He chamfered the oil holes and all that was left to do was deburr and polish. I looked at the invoice. He charged just $148 to recondition the crank. The rest of the bill was for the cleaning and mag. We talked about stainless valves and hardened valve seats and he said the hardened seats are only $100, so why not use them. I expected hardened seats to cost more. He uses Ferrea stainless valves and bronze valve guides. All engines receive screw-in rocker arm studs and roller rocker arms.

We talked about what kind of plan to hatch for the engine. When I left with my engine I told him I’d be back in a couple of weeks. Today I drove my GTO to his machine shop so he could get an idea of what I’m looking for. He appreciated the car and realized the stock AFB set up on my car should not be replaced with a Holley. He liked I have a 3.23 axle ratio and he factors that in how he will build my engine along with my car having a 4-speed transmission.

When I arrived, he was finishing a 350 for a ’68 Firebird resto. It is a two-barrel stocker, but he still upgraded it with Eagle rods, forged pistons, and a custom ground Howard’s hydraulic roller cam. He uses Howard’s roller cams in all the engines he builds. He says it makes a more modern and better performing engine and Howard’s will grind a cam just for a specific application. He reminded me that all engines built over the past 20-odd years use roller cams. He likes Howard’s because it’s not made off shore (Wisconsin) and they work with him on custom grinds. He had some bad experiences with Comp Cams and they didn’t seem interested in working with him. He has built many Pontiac resto engines that appear stock on the outside with modern upgrades inside.

So, I am going to get a quote from him soon. There's an opening to bring the engine back to the shop in July. I know I will spend more than the $4,000-$5,000 I anticipated, but I think I could get more in return. I like the prospect that the engine will be broke-in and tuned on a dyno. The valve train will be set. I will know how well it will run before I put it back in the car. I won’t even have to paint it. The engine will be all ready to install before it leaves. No surprises or doubts. He will use any of the existing items from the 389 currently in my GTO and that will save costs and maintain the stock appearance (correct bolts, plug wires, etc.).

I know some people don't like roller cams and I figured on using a flat tappet cam, but it's hard to ignore the number of engines being built using roller valve trains. I have a roller valve train in my 2002 Silverado and it has been trouble free for over 200,000 miles. Maybe I need to at least have an open mind and hear the man out on his proposal.
 
#16 ·
FWIW - If I'm having a shop build my motor - They're building it with the parts I want in it !!! I understand he's got to make a living and it's his reputation on the line , Therefore , the shopping list is handed over and he can purchase and do his markup.. Keep in mind - the machine shop works for you, not the other way around! ! ! Does he have to live with the choices he's made for your engine?

If my machine shop wanted to go roller and I did not, it would not get a roller P E R I O D ! ! I'd go to your neighbor or another shop. Personally, If your neighbor knows PONCHOS , I'd go with him and get the satisfaction of having hands on in building it ..


My .02
 
#17 ·
"...Many, many cheap, off-the-shelf pistons are available for the 400 Pontiac. None are available for the 389..."

Don't know exactly what your idea of cheap is. But, Sealed power 288P cast pistons are still available for the 389.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-288p30

The only forged 389 shelf pistons, I'm aware of, are the DSS brand. But, they cost about as much as some custom pistons.

http://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...4-080-or-4-100-bore.html?ref=category:1234874

https://dssracing.cld.bz/DSS-RACING171/38-39#zoom=z
 
#18 ·
I agree the machinist is going with what he is comfortable with ( off the shelf 400 pistons and roller cam) and not necessarily keeping in line with the owner's wish of a basically stock solid engine. I would personally not go the roller-route or off-shelf 400 piston route, but that's my opinion. I would try for a .040" overbore and get custom pistons and run a good flat tappet camshaft. But I've already said all this. Your engine, your choice.
 
#19 ·
I know what you’re saying geeteeohguy, but after hanging around his shop a couple of times and looking at what he is building it makes me wonder if I’ve been stuck in 1982 too long. I think a lot of old school types would have appreciated what was going on around the shop.

The reason I chose this shop is because it falls in line of what I’ve been told that it is important to find a machine shop that knows how to build a Pontiac engine. Living in the Omaha area where the author of the book, How to Rebuild Pontiac V8s, Rocky Rotella, lives pointed me in the direction I am now. This shop built some of the engines in his book and for him. And he has built some other high end Pontiac engines. Currently he has a 1960 389 Tri Power he is going to re-rebuild the right way after someone else didn’t. He was finishing a 350 two-barrel stocker with some mods for a ’68 Firebird restoration.

One of the reasons he uses roller valve trains is he advocates the 4 for 7 firing order swap. He builds a lot of racing engines for circle track and drag racing. He told me he has built many Pontiac V8s employing the 4 for 7 swap and even if a street engine may not realize much of a power gain changing the firing order, the engines run cooler, smoother, and the torsional vibration on the crank and bearings is reduced. He believes these measures help make an engine last and operate more efficiently.

I want to at least get an estimate. Most of the brands of parts he uses I like. He buys parts for less than I can get them and charges what I would pay if I went the Jegs/Summit retail route. The only difference he has in preference over what I have is Howards cams and Diamond pistons. But he said he has good results having both companies custom build roller cams and forged dished pistons for him.

The real difference maker was that I drove my GTO to his shop so he could see what I am looking for and where/how the engine he builds will be used. He likes my car and likes how I still run the OEM Carter AFB. The only exterior alterations he recommends is a Pertronix ignition conversion for the original distributor (if my tach will still work using it) and Ram Air restorations H.O. exhaust manifolds with Pypes exhaust X pipe. He has built many stock appearing Pontiac engines with internal upgrades with Eagle rods, Ferrea stainless valves, bronze guides, and screw-in rocker arm studs.

I figured on spending at least $5,000 for an engine. If I can get more for my money by spending a little more to have something broke in and tested and tuned on a dyno and he includes exhaust and ignition upgrades, it might be a good value. It could be a strong running reliable modern engine that is the solution to fit with today’s driving realities.

I guess we’ll see the tale of the tape and go from there.
 
#24 ·
"...I figured on spending at least $5,000 for an engine..."


Yeah, just the roller cam set-up, rods & pistons will be over $2000. A properly built engine with H-beam rods, Diamond pistons, a HR set-up, and correctly done heads with stainless valves, will cost MUCH closer to $10k than $5k.

Here's all you can get for $5k.

455 Long Block
 
#25 ·
Personally, and just my opinion as a 40-year GTO guy who's owned several and driven many, I don't like the direction this build is headed. Way too many exotic, over-engineered additions that have no place on an everyday street driver. The only thing I see here is a machinist making maximum profit. I said it before, I'll say it again, if it were me, I'd be looking for another machinist. I am currently running two Pontiac engines with flat tappet cams, stock firing orders, and stock carburetion and ignition systems. My 389 hasn't been opened up or missed a beat since the rebuild it got in 1981, and my 400 got pulled down for a reseal job in 2011, 23 years and 88,000 miles after its 1988 rebuild. The internals, including its old school 068 cam, still looked like brand new. Do what you will, but I see a $10,000 dollar build here with no realized improvement over a basic build for half that price. Good luck to you.
 
#26 ·
Well I am taking your advice at heart. I still have yet to get an estimate from this machine shop and I at least want to hear what he proposes.
If his bid is towards what you guys predict, I will be out for sure. I don’t want to spend $8,000 plus on this engine. Most of what he proposes is what I had in mind, except for the roller valve train, using a 4 for 7 swap. I have read some about 4 for 7 swaps and it seems to work well, but I also know I can live without it.

Right now, I have a free and clear core that is re-buildable and the crank has been turned .010/.010, de-burred, polished, and the oil holes chamfered. I am paid up, with just $364 in this project.

Sticker shock will make me hit pause and look elsewhere. Or I can just request a traditional flat tappet valve train. I already talked him out of switching me away from my AFB to a Holley. He saw my car and has a better understanding where this engine is going to land.

I am being more patient now. I have a running car right now, so it’s not a crisis to build this engine immediately. His prices include Ram Air exhaust manifolds and converting the points ignition to Pertronix. He runs the engines on a dynometer and sets them up before they head for the cherry picker. I like the idea knowing how the engine runs and that it doesn’t leak before putting it in the car.

Again, we’ll see what he says. I did ask him what $5,000 would do and he said that would cover 2/3s of the build. He says most engines cost about $7,500, but mine would be less since I already have things like the carburetor etc.

I really appreciate and respect all your points of view. I will post what I hear. Thanks guys!
 
#27 ·
Extinctmake, My four cents(inflation)...

a rebuild should be much easier than your are going through... I would run not walk to another builder. Good ones are hard to find but taking your time "interviewing" and checking around town for references will help. One builder told me "oh it will be 6K plus shipping which he would not tell me what type of shipping (how much is that? Are you talking overnight or slow boat from china?) and tax, if you dismantle and reassemble it will save you about 5 months and I'll knock off a couple hundred" What?! As I said, I ran to the guy I ended up using.

Oh, ad if they start trying to talk you into things you don't want or don't know about find a guy that will do what you want!
 
#28 ·
IMHO, (have had quite a Pontiac RA & HO engines built) the 4-7 swap & the Hydraulic roller cam makes little sense, exc for the SELLER. The 326-400 Pontiac engine family has 3.0" diam mains, not small near 2.56" diam mains, the 389 will not living in a world where its crank going to be stressed. All the talk about harmonics...lol. The stock head flow from a set of 716/77/093 casting heads restricts any serious power up top... 180 to 185 Cfm @ 28" @ .400 intake valve lift...maybe 190 Cfm @ .500 valve lift on the intake side.

Spending all the extra funds for a HFT cam install, & for that matter the Eagle rods in a stock head flow 389 with the restrictive stock AFB & 3.23 gears...going in a car that's going to get the occasional driver duty, oh yeah, sounds like something a high priced engine shop 45 miles south of me would pull. An old friend (& a very accomplished Pontiac guy) worked in that particular local shop for over a decade, & I felt confident when he was performing what I ask him to do, machine work wise, otherwise, I did not use this shop. Before this old friend's tenure there, the owners son in law who worked the sales counter tried to run me up bill of over $2800 plus tax on a '70 WS engine build. that was 3 decades ago! the rebuild was to be with cheap Sealed Power valves & run of the mill TRW forged pistons & a Crane copy of the 068 cam. I kept that build tally sheet for amusement, & instead have went with 3 different engine shops over the years from the same region, one being a very well versed 35+ year career Pontiac engine builder. Currently, am working on two Pure Stock engine builds, rules are strict, correct heads, no porting, no gasketmatching. both require a custom ground HFT cam which limits gross valve lift @ .424", engines have to make 16" vacuum @ 1200 rpm. 445 gross HP/540 ft lbs torque is the goal & the goal for each will be met. Neither engine build is going to break the bank, either.
 
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