wutanga13x

so..... what do you change the gm crap with? and how much torco additive did you use?

 

PatrickNJ

I took the Goat back to the delear last week and had the entire differential replaced. The service manager told me that when they spoke to GM they said that there have been problems with the diffs in the Goats. I am assuming they gave me the same type of diff.
After the new diff I do notice about an 75% difference (less whine).

05_GTO

I just put in the whole bottle of FM. I used Torco.

GM has an "updated" rear end they replace the old ones with. What is updated I have no idea. GM can not "bandage" up the rear ends, so they have to replace them.

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GTO JUDGE

The rear end is swapped out and replaced with a new one. Sometimes the whine is completely gone, sometimes the whine is reduced, and sometimes the new rear has to be replaced with yet another new one.

This is not GM's fault, Dana Corp built a bunch of bad ones. The entire rear end is a Dana product. Dana has to make this part good, NOT GM. GM does the work, but will not tear apart a vendor's part. If the rear end was a GM product, it may be they'd tear it apart and rebuild one, however only GM would be able to verify this.

For anyone who doesn't know the process; Once the defective part, for instance in this case, a rear end, is replaced, GM will send it back to Dana, with a HEFTY back charge. They log hours it takes the tech to swap it out, and any other charge they can tag Dana with for a warranty claim. GM will make money on this. This keeps vendors on their toes when supplying a builder with parts.

Once Dana receives the defective parts it is examined and noted, and any improvements that can be made are implemented in the build process. If Dana finds parts in that rear end are defective, they will back charge their supplier, even a sister Dana plant. I don't know who all supplies Dana with interior parts but each Dana plant is responsible for quality control, and if a fellow Dana plant is back charged it reflects on that plant and can reduce QC bonuses etc.

My experience in warranty work with Dana was, and this was common with back charges with Mack Trucks.... Once the returned part is completely processed, that part is destroyed and sold as scrap. Seems like a huge waste but this is what happens. Parts within a unit that are not defective are sometimes purposely destroyed and placed in a scrap container so that part can not find its way into one of the employees garages and sold. Some parts after careful inspection are put back in inventory and reused. In essence, the defective parts are recycled. This is what happens when parts are replaced within warranty, or at least this is Dana's process. I have seen some really nice parts headed to the scrap heap, and anyone caught helping themselves to these parts was disciplined or terminated.

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05_GTO

The rear end was not designed or made by Dana originally. It's a Borg Warner Model 80 IRS, which now belongs to Dana. So I guess you can kind of say it's a a Dana.

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Dana Corporation's Independent Rear Suspension Module Drive Reintroduced, Nostalgic American Muscle Car


Dana Corporation's Independent Rear Suspension Module Drive Reintroduced, Nostalgic American Muscle Car

DANA CORPORATION LOGO
Dana Corporation logo. (PRNewsFoto)[AS]
TOLEDO, OH USA


TOLEDO, Ohio, Jan. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Dana Corporation (NYSE:
DCN) announced today that it will supply the complete independent rear
suspension (IRS) module, including a Dana axle and limited slip differential,
and assemble front corner modules on the high-performance, V-8 rear-wheel-
drive 2005 Pontiac GTO.
(Logo: Newscom Search )
"Through our 100 years of experience, Dana has earned a solid reputation
for delivering drivelines that operate comfortably and consistently in
demanding environments. When automotive engineers need durability,
reliability, strong product design, and engineering knowledge for high-
performance applications, one of their obvious supplier choices is Dana," said
Bill Carroll, Dana's acting president and chief operating officer.
Rather than serving simply as a stand-alone component, Dana's axle was
designed into a complete IRS module. GM and Dana engineers found efficiencies
by borrowing from the GM Holden Commodore, Dana's first high-volume IRS
module, and applying the module to the new Pontiac GTO.
The differentials and axle assemblies are produced at Dana's Fairfield
facility in New South Wales, Australia. Dana's stamped rear trailing arms are
manufactured at Cheltenham, Victoria, Australia, suspension facility. Both
axles and trailing arms are then shipped to Dana's Adelaide, Salisbury,
Australia, facility for assembly into the complete IRS module. The IRS module
and front corner modules are then shipped to GM Holden's Elizabeth Vehicle
Assembly Plant where the Pontiac GTO is assembled and then exported to the
United States. The axle utilizes Dana's proprietary technology in hypoid gear
design that maximizes gear strength capacity and durability, as well as
optimizing gear tooth meshing refinement.
These Dana axles are more compact, requiring less packaging space in the
vehicle. The advanced axle design, along with publicly recognized
manufacturing quality, assures a reliable product for this powerful sports-
coupe application.
Dana also supplies the piston rings, cylinder-head gasket, and secondary
seals and gaskets for the vehicle's 5.7 liter V-8 engine.
Dana Corporation is a global leader in the design, engineering, and
manufacture of value-added products and systems for automotive, commercial,
and off-highway vehicle manufacturers and their related aftermarkets. The
company employs approximately 60,000 people worldwide. Founded in 1904 and
based in Toledo, Ohio, Dana operates hundreds of technology, manufacturing,
and customer service facilities in 30 countries. The company reported sales
of $9.5 billion in 2002. Dana's Internet address is http://www.dana.com


SOURCE Dana Corporation


As far as the 2004 year, no mention is made of the rear end. I have read where some think Borg Warner made the rears, however I cannot find any documentation from Borg Warner or GM stating the rear in the 2004 GTO is a Borg Warner product. The rear end is the same for all 3 years and the parts are interchangeable. For Dana to assume the build process, Dana would have had to acquire Borg Warner or buy the patent from Borg Warner to produce the rear ends.

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btchplz

OK, looking for some advice. I've read about the rear end whine and always considered myself fortunate because I never experienced any problems with it. However, I just recently took in my car for service, they did a bunch of things and one was the rear end differential service.

During this service, they found a pinion leaking (If someone would please explain this to me that would be great). So I authorized them to fix the leak. They performed the differential service, and when I drove off. I noticed a howling sound as I coasted. Usually 30 MPH or more. I didn't turn right around because I picked up the car after hours. When I called the next day, they told me that the technician probably forgot to put in the additive that quiets the rear end. They told me to just bring it back and they would take care of it.

When I took it back this morning, my service writer pulled up the previous service order, and he saw that they did in fact put in the additive. But they would still check it out. So he calls me and tells me that the noise is definitely too loud to be a simple whine. He says the tech told him that due to the pinion leak, it could have caused damage to the gears and the whole rear end needs to be replaced because GM doesn't have parts for the rear end. After reading this post I can see why. He left it as he is going to have his service manager speak to GM to see if they can cover the replacement. I am way out of my warranty so I am nervous that I may be stuck with the $4200 bill.

What do you guys think of the situation, what possibilities are there that GM would replace it out of warranty? I have been servicing my vehicle regularly with the same dealer, and I am pretty sure this is the second Rear End differential service that they have performed. My car has 62K miles on it now.

If GM does not cover it, would the car be OK to drive with my annoying howling sound? I appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Thanks!

GTO JUDGE

This sounds like a classic case of you caused the noise, now you fix it. I'd stand fast on that. The rear is a sealed unit. If the pinion was leaking it was coming from the unit itself. By fixing the leak (putting a new gasket on I assume that's what they did, should not cause a howling noise)

It depends on what the tech did to fix the leak, did he tear it apart and not put it back right? If he took any gears out and put them back without proper backlash tolerances the gears may not be meshing right and you are hearing the results.

Did they use synthetic gear oil? Did they use the correct weight oil? Did they under fill the oil?

I do recall when my rear was howling and the old oil was replaced with new, After a couple of hours the howling subsided.

Damage done to the gears? Only if no oil was coating them and heat got to them. Wearing can cause howling too but at 62K, unlikely.The howling only occurred after the tech serviced the unit. That analogy doesn't make sense.

Your service department should make this right.

Here is some information I found;

"Many things can go wrong inside a differential. Although the hints are often subtle, most impending failures give fair warning in the form of noise.

Several situations can create ring-and-pinion noise. If the gears have been quiet and begin to howl, they are probably worn or wearing. If the gears howl during deceleration only, it’s possible that the pinion-bearing preload has loosened. Howling under acceleration at all speeds indicates that something in the differential -- gears, pinion or carrier bearings -- has worn or no longer keeps the gear alignment correct. If the gears howl while accelerating over a certain speed range, but not all speeds, it’s likely that the gears are worn due to lubrication failure or overloading. When a newly installed gear set howls, suspect the design or setup.

A common problem is worn carrier bearings, as indicated by a low-pitch rumble above 20 mph. On vehicles with C-clip axles the noise may vary while negotiating turns. Worn pinion bearings can cause whirring noises at all speeds, under deceleration and/or acceleration. Pinion bearings tend to whir, rather than rumble because the pinion is turning several times faster (depending on gear ratio) that the carrier. Badly worn bearings can also cause howl if they do not support the gears correctly.

Worn wheel bearings can be difficult to determine. A very bad wheel bearing typically makes itself heard with great clarity; it’s the bearing that is going bad, but not destroyed that is hard to find. Turning back and forth from hard right to hard left can identify the culprit; however, I’ve been fooled by right-front wheel bearings that make noise when turning right (which heavily loads the inside-left-front wheel bearing, but also loads the outside-right-front bearing).

One common situation that may not make any noise: The pinion spins, but the tires don’t rotate. Broken spider gears can render the differential immobile, and usually make a loud, crunching sound as they make their final departure. A broken ring gear will allow the differential to propel the vehicle for about eight feet at a time, then bang or grind as the section with broken teeth tries to engage the pinion. Depending on ratio, a broken pinion tooth (or teeth) will clunk about every two or three feet.

A broken axle is easily determined. After it breaks, a C-clip design axle can be pulled out of the housing without unbolting anything -- or may even find it’s own way out. On many bolt-in-design axles, the wheel will give the broken axle shaft away by cambering in at an angle.

A high spot on a gear tooth may sound similar to a broken gear, but will only make noise while accelerating or decelerating, since the spot appears on just one side of the offending tooth. A high spot on the ring gear will make a heavy clicking sound about every eight feet; a high spot on the pinion makes noise every two or three feet and is much more pronounced due to its higher frequency.

Whether large or small, differential noise is telling you something. Listen carefully! If in doubt, pull off the cover or remove the third member for a closer look. Catching a bad part before is ruins others is definitely worth the effort."

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btchplz

This info helps a lot, the service writer called me back and said GM will only charge me a $500 deductible to replace the whole rear end. I have asked him about the oil used and how the leak was fixed, he's going to get back to me.

Not sure how much can be done because my warranty has expired, but we shall see what he comes back with.

cody6.0

They did actually fix the leak though?

One of the most common misconceptions when doing a pinion seal is that you can remove the pinion nut remove the yoke, replace the seal and put it back together and it's fine.

When in reality once you loose preload it's gone unless a solid pinion spacer is used. After a crush sleeve is relieved of pressure it is done working unless you crush it further which would lead to problems.

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