This is a rather lengthy post but as you read I think you will find it informative if not, entertaining. This just happened to me and I hope by others reading this, they will think of what they have read here and act accordingly.
Well I thought the search was over…. I have been looking for a 69 / 70 Judge for the past couple of years. I opted to purchase my 05 instead but have been keeping an eye out for any Judges in MY price range. With the prices of these remaining quite high for my liking, I entertained the thought of a clone as long as it was done right. After many emails, and telephone conversations with John Johnson the GTOAA Judge authority I learned what to look for and what to expect. His knowledge and eagerness to help me was greatly appreciated and helped me a great deal. He was also keeping an eye out for me and shot me an email with a beautifully done priced right 70 Judge Clone. We talked about this car and in his opinion through the ad and pictures this car was every bit a Judge with the exception of the VIN.
What this car is, is a completely stripped down Lemans done up with all the GTO Judge bells and whistles including RA-III. There is no doubt the guy who built this knows how to build cars. He did a phenomenal job doing so. I went to inspect this car and was impressed at how well the car was done in Palisades Green/Green Interior 400 turbo automatic with 355 posi rears. The car was all but flawless. I put a deposit on it. My search was over, so I thought. The guy even agreed to deliver the car to me with some extras. I was floored.
Now for the part where we all have heard, if it’s too good to be true, it usually is… One major problem I found just one day before I was going to purchase the car…. First thing that I thought was odd was the guy wanted cash only, not even a cashiers check. OK I thought I can appreciate that. Then the kicker…. The title is NOT cleared. The guy it turns out purchased the car from an older guy and the older guy signed the title over to this guy that wants to sell this car, but the title has not been properly processed. This guy never had the car titled over to himself, which means he fixed the car up with the older guys name on the title. Even though the older guy signed the title in the seller’s box the title was never notarized or transferred so this car by law remains the property of the older guy. When I was informed of this by the seller RED FLAGS went up right away even though the seller reassured me over and over this is a legit car etc. Not by PA law. This guy wanted to get the title notarized now to sell it to me. All well in good except for one thing, by PA law, the title as is it is is known as an open title. This means the seller never finalized the sale of the car and for all anyone knows, there could be a duplicate title out there or a lean against it, etc. With the title not being properly processed by the state, the guy now selling the car becomes a 2nd party to the sale. What does this mean? It means he is trying to sell someone else’s car with out his name on the title. He is acting like a go between. The original owner can not be located so I am told. So the original owner is not available to properly disperse the car. I have called my local AAA 4 times and my local TAG place to verify all of this. The title MUST be notarized with the seller and buyer present in front of the notary. If not done in accordance, the notary is in serious trouble should this be found out. Also, by me filling in the blanks as the buyer after the title is notarized leaves me open to prosecution if it is found out I partook in this.
It is possible to fill in all the blanks and do the don’t ask don’t tell thing with the tag place and get away with it. That would work however, IF there is a duplicate title out there, or the heirs to the older guy get wind of this, the title I thought was good would be kicked back by the state as being null and void. Ok now what? The true owner would still be the older guy… I stated the guy wanted cash, NO cashiers check….This means NO paper trail. This means the sizeable amount of money I would have given the guy cannot be traced back to him because there is no proof. 1. His name is not on any documents, 2. No paper trail linking him to this, and 3. No way of getting my money back should this deal turn sour. The guy would gain a ton of money and not have any links to this deal other than he said, she said, and with no proof of a paper trail or his name in signature or otherwise, he could not be held accountable.
I am not saying this deal is shady nor am I accusing the guy of scamming. He swears he has done this many times before selling cars and says this is all legit. He may be on the up and up. According the state of PA the title in it’s current state, shows the car to belong to the original owner, a guy who is not around. After reading this you decide if the deal is worth a huge financial risk, and draw your own conclusions whether the deal sounds on the up and up.
Ok, why did I take the time to post this? I posted this to forewarn others who may be contemplating doing business like this now or in the future to STOP and think before its too late. I consider myself to be pretty astute when it comes to situations like this and only at the last minute did I call it off. Of course the guy is FUMING mad and told me I cost him the opportunity to sell the car to others among other obscenities. Maybe so, I figure, better him to be pissed at me now than me to be pissed later if the whole transaction went array and I lost a large sum of money. I was able to stop payment on the check I used for a deposit.
As bad as I wanted the car, and as bad as I want an oldie but goodie, this transaction was just not worth the risk. As I explained this scenario here I did so to my local AAA face to face and according to them the whole situation just had a bad overtone. BUYER BEWARE… So my search continues… sooner or later I hope to find one.
Oh, did I mention this was an Ebay ad?
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Last edited by GTO JUDGE : 10-19-2007 at 06:10 PM.
Judge,
If it smells like a turd, it usually is one. My neighbor bought a hell of a deal 70 Challenger, only to wind up with a car that had a lean on it and that took a year to resolve before he could title it in MD.
Judge,
If it smells like a turd, it usually is one. My neighbor bought a hell of a deal 70 Challenger, only to wind up with a car that had a lean on it and that took a year to resolve before he could title it in MD.
Good luck on your continued hunt,
Red.
Hey Red...
So many red flags with this deal.. If there is a duplicate title out there, I am out major money. If this guys kids jump in I LOSE. He was in a big hurry to unload it. He said he had another car he was buying lined up. I'd like to think the whole deal was on the up and up but what makes NO sense to me is... would you put 22.5K (so he said) into a car to fix it up while it is in the name of another party? This old guy or his family could come get that car now and there is nothing the seller can do about it. Had I pulled the trigger on it, and the title is not cleared, the car could be sitting in my drive and a Sheriff accompanied with this guy's family could come get and all I could do was watch it drive away. Of course the guy swears this whole deal is legit, (I have no way of knowing) but the only one who can sell another persons car (with proper documentation) is a dealer. He isn't one. All he had to do was transact this car and have the title, titled in his name. Hell, the car is still registered to the original owner.
My original plan was to trade my Ram 4x4 on a new one at this time and look for a Judge in the spring. This deal came along so I jumped on it. I quickly jumped off of it and went out and traded my Ram for a new one. I am confident this deal is on the up and up. I will look in the Spring at Spring Carlisle for another one.... My first question will be for me to see the title and verify ownership.
My neighbor had the paper trail to prove he purchased the car and the seller was less than honest during the transaction which provided him with leverage to get the seller to clear the lean on the car or face a law suit. He had changed out the engine with a 413 hemi he had built a few years before and ran in his Ramcharger until it was T-boned by someone running a stop sign. Ultimately he found out there was a problem after finishing all the resto work and went to MVA to title it under his name. They informed him he held the duplicate title and there was a lean in place.
Something similar could have been behind this guys sale of the Judge clone you found and the insistence on cash only makes the deal smell like shark bait. Glad to read you didn't get reeled in!
Imagine all the people out there get duped despite all the warning signs. Being a member of GTOAA does have it's advantages, while talking to J.Johnson about a GTO I saw for sale in Kansas, he stated he could send out a member of the local chapter to inspect the car on my behalf. So, if anyone is contemplating buying a car way out of state, it is possible to have a fellow GTOAA member take a look at the car for you.
Before I learned this title was an open title, I did a google search on PHS documents. I came across the following an EBAYer posted after he was screwed. Read on:
I recently bought a fraud 1969 GTO JUDGE that I seen listed on ebay by a seller out of California. The ad promoted it as a true PHS documented Judge car, with Carousel Red paint, and Black interior, Ram Air III motor, and displayed the Pontiac Historical Service Document as proof in the listing photo's. He also had a high feedback rating, (not an true indication the person is not a criminal.) There was only a cell phone number as the only means of contact (again beware, not trackable.) It was also on a 3 day auction, which gives everything a sense of ugency. When I contacted the person with questions about the car, we ending up talking price. He wanted the money wired to his bank account immediately, and said he would close the auction early once he got the money. I was suspicious that on his PHS document on the Ebay listing, as it was a very small photo and the VIN numbers were hardly readable, and some of the VIN numbers looked liked they had been altered by being handwritten over, but when questioned on this, he stated that was the way the fax came out. Also he did not put the VIN number in the ad in the discription field designed for it, (beware) where it would be clearly visible, but when questioned about this, he said would not put it on because some people get VIN # off ebay and use them to falsify documents. (Was he talking about himself??) Well after the car was shipped, I used the VIN number off the title and sent in to PHS to verify his document. It came back that it was NOT a true JUDGE. It also showed that the options on the car were completely different that his PHS document, and that the car was originally Gold with Gold interior. Once the car arrived, the interior had been SPRAY PAINTED Black to cover up the Gold interior, and the fraud was not even done neatly, as parts of the console, the carpet underneath the console, and seatbelts, all had areas of Gold showing where they had missed them with the paint. It was obvious that he had saw a true JUDGE and got its VIN number, and sent into PHS for the document, then they altered the VIN number on that document to match their car's VIN number, then put in on ebay to trap a buyer. Ebay says they will do nothing since the sale took place outside of Ebay. To make matters worse, the guy still has an account and still sells on Ebay. So your only recourse is the legal system. BEWARE, just because the Ad says it is a true JUDGE, do not believe it until you verify it yourself. The Ram Air III engine turned out to be a junk low performance motor, the dash was busted up, none of the guages worked, the body and paint was shoddy, the air conditioning and radio was ripped out, there are many mechanical problems. shall i go on? In essence, the car was not driveable. These SCAMS will only get worse on Ebay until internet fraud laws are tightened and enforced. There are some things you can do to protect yourself. It is better to loose a deal that your hard earned money to these professional con artist out there. Believe me, they know how to work you, and catch you in a moment of weakness. Don't ever think it won't happen to you. 1.) Make sure you go see the car before you buy it. (no matter if it is 2,000 miles away.) 2.) Get your own documentation. 3.) Don't trust anyone, or take anyone's word for anything. 4.) Exchange the money in the state you live in, not his. If the deal goes sour, you can serve a warrant and have him extradited to your state. Once you are Scammed do the following. 1.) File a report with the Sheriff's department immediately. 2.) File a complaint with Ebay. 3.) Contact a Lawyer and sue. 4.) File a complaint with the Internet Crime Complaint Center at w w w ic3. gov This is a partnership between the FBI and the White Collar crime center for victims of Internet Crimes. 5.) Contact the Dept of Motor Vehicles and Police in the County where the person resides, and file a complaint. If evidence is strong enough, the DA will prosecute as a criminal offence. 6.) Put a Scam notice on Ebay. 7.) File a complaint with the National Check Fraud Organization. 8.) Don't let it slide!!! Get all of what happened documented with every agency you can think of, if nothing more than for future reference, in case this person's name comes up again with Police, authorities will have a history, and can build a better case. I hope this will help someone else.
I`ve seen people skip title transfer for fixer-uppers and units bought just to resell. Here in Wisconsin you can walk right in and get a title and plates at the DMV. I would have the seller come with me to the DMV and transfer the title to his name like he should have. Then transfer it directly from his name to mine and pay all the fees and walk out with plates and everything. If the car is legit, he should have no problem doing that. Then there`s your paper trail showing him as the seller to you.
I`ve seen people skip title transfer for fixer-uppers and units bought just to resell. Here in Wisconsin you can walk right in and get a title and plates at the DMV. I would have the seller come with me to the DMV and transfer the title to his name like he should have. Then transfer it directly from his name to mine and pay all the fees and walk out with plates and everything. If the car is legit, he should have no problem doing that. Then there`s your paper trail showing him as the seller to you.
Thing is the legal owner is the original owner because the title was not properly processed and is not around to verify, so I am told. Even though the persons name on the title signed in the sellers box and it was not properly processed, he is still the legal owner and there is no way to know for sure if the title was obtained legally. Any alterations to that title now is illegal.
Here in PA the laws are more stringent. Only a dealer can transfer as a 2nd party so I am told by my local auto club. I suppose I could have had him travel to Harrisburg to the DMV with me to do this, but being he insisted on cash, and the actual owner being no where to be found for confirmation even though he obtained the car locally, I am sure he would have balked at that. He also informed me he cannot get off work so I was working with him on an evening transaction. He had all his bases covered. Too many loose ends on this transaction, him wanting to sell this car 5 days before the auction was to end, and other stories that didn't quite add up, I wasn't taking any chances. I don't "need" the car, it was a want. So, either he won't be able to unload it legally, or someone else can take the risk.
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I will look in the Spring at Spring Carlisle for another one.... My first question will be for me to see the title and verify ownership. 
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