Pontiac GTO Forum banner

Dan's 69 Restore Tale

149K views 831 replies 38 participants last post by  GTOTIGR 
#1 · (Edited)
**EDIT ** Trying to fix pics... 02-28-2019

Hi all,

Earlier this summer, 4th of July to be exact (literally on the 4th she arrived from Florida) I became another one of those guys in a long long line of guys when I full-filled a life-long dream of owning a muscle car I grew up working on with my Dad. I learned most of what I know from Dad and those era cars – I’ve always coveted them as many others before me.

There she is Ms. Muscle car (la la la)

View attachment 117891

No, she is not a real Judge and she won’t be branded as such when I’m done. I do have to admit is it fun watching people drool or flip out when they see her. One guy stopped at the house and started shaking because he was standing next to a judge… I did’t have the heart to tell him otherwise.

So enough about me – you are reading this because you like these cars. I plan to “restore” this ride to its former glory but I have a lot of decisions to make and some work to do so I can drive her with confidence – which I don’t have now. I will be doing all the work myself (mostly) – I’m partly a self taught car guy, outside if what Dad tough me of course. This won’t be my first restore but my largest and most detailed for sure!

On to the car… I found her in Florida. She was built and bought in Fremont California and moved to Florida later in life where I found her through a mutual acquaintance with the previous owner. I knew she had some issues when I bought her – it was not sight unseen but her body is near perfect with no “bondo” – meaning nothing more than a skim coat for straightness and no “repairs. I was disappointed to find out the truck lid had been replaced by a Lemans or Tempest lid – the filler spots have come loose in the old emblem holes. Since I have the touch of a bull in a china shop and not much welding experience I’ll have a professional do that bit of work.

View attachment 117893

View attachment 117895

Sporting a numbers matching drive train (engine, trans and all) with only 66K miles and a color change 20 years ago from Gold-n-Gold to Black-n-white she is pretty clean and has all original parts including the seat covers which were dyed not replaced – save the non-factory radio. My first dilemma, do I restore her to factory colors and all, stick with the current color scheme or change it to my favorite color Verdoro green? I know she’ll be worth more casheesh in original colors but I’m not a fan of the gold-n-gold. That being said the color decision can wait as my first concern is to make her road worthy mechanically.

She has these options:
1. Working factory A/C
2. Auto trans
3. Remote trunk release
4. Glove box light
5. Courtesy lights.
6. Front disc brakes
7. Shoulder belts
8. windshield antenna


First question: what would you guys do color wise?

So... Saturday I started on the brakes.

I was told the brakes had just been done but I was puzzled why they were so hard to apply. I figured they had air in them and simple bloodletting was in order.

I opened them up to see new wheel cylinders in the rear... and lots of rust, actually a puzzling amount of rust for a California/Florida car. Ok, so the brakes were done (including a booster and master cylinder). Now I'm doubly puzzled...

View attachment 117905

I begin to work on them and this is what I find when I pulled the brake ram... leaking wheel cylinders!!! Actually I was shocked to find then FULL of water!!!!

View attachment 118281

So, off to the local parts mecca.... Then when I started to put them back together I had this start happening....

View attachment 118277

Yes, ALL the springs were bent up and/or snapped as I pulled on them to rebuild the brakes... BACK to the parts store... obviously I had all original brake springs and all too.



Some parts were pretty rusty, I debated on soaking them in vinegar and hitting this with a wire wheel but I wanted to get it back on the road sooner than that would take so I used a wire wheel to clean them up... I’ll attack the wheel housings and such when I do the real restore as this is just the mechanical restore.

View attachment 118279

Yea, my toes are pictures whores just like me. I hope you guys like pictures because they are my bag. :)

More to come because of limited photos per post...
 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
Initial post part duex

I also found these parts looked like there were hammered on... I’m hopping the braking system isn’t doing that!!





… and the mystery of why there was so much rust is solved... there are TWO holes in the brake system, one on the backer plates and one on the drum(s). The plugs were missing allowing water to enter!!! I believe the passenger drum was replaced at some point as it is the only one with a hole in it and the passenger side was rusted much more than the driver side so double the water was getting in to muck things up.



Bleeding the brakes exposed another mystery... Almost no fluid comes out the back wheel cylinders and the fronts blow out huge "plugs" of air over and over... despite the pedal becoming easier to apply. Also, I could not believe the amount of water and gunk that came out of the lines. I'm wondering if I'll need hard lines...I’m hoping someone here can tell me if the OEM lines were stainless and I wonder if the master cylinder is bad or air is entering the system somewhere down stream - I don't have any visible leaks... or is it the proportioning valve or distribution block and which do I have.

This car has factory Delco-Remy front disc and drum rear brakes.

What to do what to do...

I look forward to this restore and any input/advice you guys can give me will be much appreciated.

So, my first batch of questions.

1. Restore to original colors, keep what I have or go Verdoro green?
2. Are the hard line stainless from the factory?
3. Do I have a proportioning valve or distribution block with my factory front disc/ rear drum set up?
 
#43 ·
Color

I also found these parts looked like there were hammered on... I’m hopping the braking system isn’t doing that!!





… and the mystery of why there was so much rust is solved... there are TWO holes in the brake system, one on the backer plates and one on the drum(s). The plugs were missing allowing water to enter!!! I believe the passenger drum was replaced at some point as it is the only one with a hole in it and the passenger side was rusted much more than the driver side so double the water was getting in to muck things up.



Bleeding the brakes exposed another mystery... Almost no fluid comes out the back wheel cylinders and the fronts blow out huge "plugs" of air over and over... despite the pedal becoming easier to apply. Also, I could not believe the amount of water and gunk that came out of the lines. I'm wondering if I'll need hard lines...I’m hoping someone here can tell me if the OEM lines were stainless and I wonder if the master cylinder is bad or air is entering the system somewhere down stream - I don't have any visible leaks... or is it the proportioning valve or distribution block and which do I have.

This car has factory Delco-Remy front disc and drum rear brakes.

What to do what to do...

I look forward to this restore and any input/advice you guys can give me will be much appreciated.

So, my first batch of questions.

1. Restore to original colors, keep what I have or go Verdoro green?
2. Are the hard line stainless from the factory?
3. Do I have a proportioning valve or distribution block with my factory front disc/ rear drum set up?
Me my self the gold is a nice color and you don't see gold GTOs around often so I would Paint it back Gold Now the interior I would keep it blk and white I think it would look good with the gold exterior . No hard lines are not stainless those are aftermarket. Yes there is a Proportioning valve for the Frt disc rear drum. as with disc /disc .it will be located on the frame or under the master cylinder. I like the ones off the master cylinder for sure if your running headers. hope this helps and enjoy Your Motoring...:)
 
#3 ·
Nice looking car Dan! To answer your questions....

1. IMO I love the black and white and your car has all the desirable options and (again) IMO it would be worth more as is than you would put into it with a color change either to Verdoro Green or Gold.

2. Hardlines were mild steel from the factory but (IMO again :lol:) You'd be well ahead to replace the 40+ year old lines with the SS.

3. You have a distribution block and a proportioning valve from the factory, the proportioning valve is mounted to the MC and the dist. block is mounted to the frame.

:cheers
 
#4 ·
Thanks ALKYGTO. I appreciate your opinions/feedback (I've been lurking here for a while and see you are a very helpful member).

I crawled under the car tonight and realized the distribution block isn't bolted to the frame (probably the reason for it failing).

Is this the proportioning valve of which you speak? The same as what I've found is called the hold off valve?



I decided tonight during my research into the brake parts to replace all the lines and distribution block. I'm leaning heavily toward the SS lines - I only want to do this once. :)

As for the color, you're right but I don't have to make that determination for some time. That being said, to make this car what I want it to be it will have to be painted some day.

Thanks again, Dan
 
#5 ·
If you plan on keeping the car then paint it any color you want. If you plan on selling it, then I would pick a factory color and leave the interior alone, the amount you would spend to go gold/gold would far outway the difference in price for the incorrect colors.
That car looks like it's in great shape allready, are you sure you want the cost involved (and time) for a frame off? Unless you want a concourse car or a trailer queen, I would just freshen up the underside and call it a day.
The brakes are not water tight and it does rain in Florida, rust is normal. If you have never driven a muscle car before, the brakes are no where near the feel of todays cars. At least yours has disc brakes and power, mine is 4 drum and manual. Goes like hell, doesn't stop worth a sh*^$**.
Congrates on a great car.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for your insight 68GTO4004Spd.

No, I don't want a trailer queen or a concourse restore just a really nice or high quality driver. At present her paint is a 10 footer so to make it better (what I like to do) it will need a repaint or touch up if I keep the black. The previous paint job (20 years ago I'm told) is lacking with craters in the clear (probably water in the air compressor lines when sprayed), raised spots where they didn't do a good job blocking or wiping her down before paint and a spot or two where they wet sanded through the paint and didn't do a good touch up (they didn't weld the truck holes for the lemans lid emblem either). Yea, sure they are cosmetic issues but I'd like to have a 100% mechanically sound car with very good skin and interior (which only needs some minor cosmetic fixes and cushions).

You're right, I don't intend to sell it so it will most likely stay black or go green and keep the white interior no matter the exterior color.

I agree rust is normal, I just didn't expect that much knowing how the PO cared for the car - there was a big difference with the passenger side having more and both plugs missing.

:lol: Yea, I jumped out of my skin the first time someone cut me off in this car. I figured the front disks would help but it's a heavy beast so it took some getting used to. :lol: It reminded me of trying to stop my '76 Caprice Classic loaded with fuel and all my college gear (and the future Mrs. Dan's gear too).
 
#8 ·
Thank you kind sir, I appreciate the help/kind words.

Dan



Stainless Steel brake lines should arrive today, distribution block should be here by Friday or Saturday and the rest of the brake hoses, steering gear, PS hoses and such should be here Saturday or Monday... Looks like I'm going to be a busy boy.:D
 
#11 ·
Thanks Mathew, I appreciate your input.

While it's on jack stands I will be taking the diff cover off as well to replace the seal. It has a leak anyway.

I thought about it being submerged but the driver side is no where near as rusty as the passenger side. I'm hoping it was just those open adjuster plug holes.

I will be replacing the passenger side rear brake cylinder too, when I'm done the entire brake system will be new and yes I plan to drive it as you suggested after I get all the mechanicals done.

Regarding the rear diff, I've read I should use a GM gear oil and a GM additive - about 27 ounces worth. Is this true or is "standard" hypoid gear oil like Lucas Oil a proper product to use? (assuming I have a limited Slip Diff which I have not verified yet).



Dan, sorry, I forgot to say... you have a great looking car. I recommend getting the baseline maintenance stuff done and go drive it. Matt
 
#12 ·
Welcome to the forum Dan, very nice car I vote keep it black/white, stunning combo. With the front disc's and drums operating and adjusted properly she will stop better than you might expect as long as your pulling enough vacuum (not too big of cam). Second time out after my resto wife was driving and some idiot decided to cut out in front of her to test mine, the car stopped dead straight Barely breaking grip on the tires. drive it and enjoy before you have to put her on blocks for re-hab...:cheers
 
#13 ·
Hi Instg8ter, Thanks for the post... most my brake parts arrived today, the rest should be here Saturday... I hope to be back on the road early next week. Being in Ohio she's going into storage in late October so I want to get it going again before then and have some fun on the road.

The cam/vacuum shouldn't be a problem because the drive train and engine are all original.

Thanks again, Dan
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.

FlambeauHO, I didn't work on the car this weekend, all my parts didn't arrive yet - should be here tomorrow. As a result I went to the MOPAR "run what ya brung" races at a local drag track Saturday. One guy in a 10 second Dodge Dart tried using two fully open bottles of Nitrous and literally put her on the rear bumper before it came crashing back to earth!!! I'm betting he has to change his nickers after that!

I can't wait two weeks until the "It's still a win if you finish on your roof" races.

This week will be tear down and rebuild of the GTO brake system!!

Dan



Agreed! Black and white look "right" on that particular model. VERY NICE!!! :cool
 
#19 ·
OK, my first quandary... I can't find what axel this is... it certainly is not a GTO rear end. Any help would be greatly appreciated guys. Dan






I also started to docuent the brake system overhaul - disassembly - but the camera died... ugly can't hide from teh light of a camera flash.



The distribution block was not bolted to the frame... probably why it doesn't work any longer.

 
#21 ·
Thanks ALKYGTO,

It's a 10 bolt with scallops on each side where the axle enters the diff.

My camera battery is charged, I'll post pictures tonight.

I did find ONE reference as a '69 Grand Prix SL 3.23 Non-slip on a defunct non-Pontiac site by ONE guy a number of years ago.
 
#24 · (Edited)
These all arrived in the last few days...

It's like my birthday is lasting all month long!!! :lol:

Shocks and ball joints...



Not sure why the rear brake lines didn't show today.



Radiator core support bushings, light gaskets, hood blanket and more... I'm also going to reinstall options removed many moons ago like the glove box and center console lights and vanity mirror. My tail lights leak so I'll replace those seals too.



Some light reading, I thought I was done with my education.



The new steering gear literally weighs 29 pounds!!



The wrong sway bar to body bushings were installed. I need to order the right ones. The correct one is on the right.



Need to order these too.

 
#27 ·
:lol: Yes, I know what you mean... I ordered more small part last night having to pay more shipping from a place I just received parts from. I also do mini truck restoration parts so I have a basement full of parts for that, I will just add the GTO parts to the store room. :)

I've used the gas adjust on other cars and I like the ride so I figured they would be a good call on this car as well. It already has some KYB shocks on it but I'm betting they are shot.

That ten bolt you have is a Pontiac 8.2. You'll have to take the cover off to determine the ratio, but if it were mine and had a ratio that I didn't want, I'd rebuild it with a new posi carrier and a 3.23:1 ratio.
Thanks for the ID chuckha62. I like your idea, I'll add that to the list of things to do after I'm done driving her (while deciding on a paint scheme and any other major $$ changes/upgrades).

I'll crack the case to fix the leak, I'll count teeth then.

Can you tell me the practical and performance difference between the two (8.2 and 3.23)?

Is it common to have a "different" rear end from the same era in a car that was advertised as all original? I know no one knows why it's there but I'm curious if it was common in the late 60s and 70s to swap out rear ends and why it may have been done with a car in such good shape (performance, gas mileage)???

Is a rebuild something I can do, I'm pretty handy, or should I have a shop do it?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm an analyst by trade and training. :)

Thanks in advance, Dan
 
#26 ·
That ten bolt you have is a Pontiac 8.2. You'll have to take the cover off to determine the ratio, but if it were mine and had a ratio that I didn't want, I'd rebuild it with a new posi carrier and a 3.23:1 ratio.
 
#28 ·
8.2 refers to the ring gear diameter in inches. The "ten bolt" refers to how many bolts hold the ring to the carrier, not how many bolts hold the cover onto the housing. 3.23 refers to the gear ratio. If I recall correctly, you're running a 3.90:1 now. Great from stop light to stop light, but impossible to drive long distances on the freeway. 3.23:1 will give you a nice around town gear and you can drive all day at 65 MPH without buzzing the crap out of the engine. The Pontiac 400 makes plenty of torque down low, so 3.23 will still accelerate nicely for you. You'll need a new carrier to install 3.23's. If you run 3.42's, I believe you can run the carrier you currently have.
 
#29 ·
Thanks for the information chuckha62, I do appreciate it. :)

Gearing is a new arena for me so I'm looking to learn all about it. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of the "10 bolt" cover versus the ring bolt count.

She does okay from my first impressions/experience but I'll know more when I open the diff cover and count teeth and bolts.

I found this on-line... I don't know if it's accurate (yet) but it's a start...

Optimum Rear Gear
 
#30 ·
There a two ways to determine rear gear ratios. 1 lift the tires off the ground, turn one revolution of the drive shaft and count how many times the right rear tire rotates (gives you a rough guess). 2 open the pumpkin and read the numbers off the ring gear and devide the numbers. In the pic below 39 devided by 11 = 3.55 gear ratio (tire turn 3 1/2 times for one turn of driveshaft). Hmm won't let me upload photo, I will try again later.
 
#31 ·
I disassembled everything brake related tonight... I found these might be my problems. The hold off valve was completely blocked/locked up.



I might have to contact NASA to have them analyze this one... I'm not sure it's really bad. Explains why the driver side was sucking air!



The rest of the brake parts I ordered showed today and all the brake clips come Friday. Now I need to get a new hold off valve. Luckily my friend works at Summit here in Ohio. I can get that the same day I order it.

Tomorrow I start brake system reassembly. I plan to have it done by Saturday so I can get back on the road. If I get done Friday I'll probably do the shocks while she's in the air and maybe even the rear diff gasket and oil.

More to come...
 
#32 ·
Good finds, both of them. When you get it all replaced and you're ready to bleed the brakes, do them in order: right rear, left rear, right front, left front. Remember though, that before you begin bleeding the front brakes you may need to press that button on the hold off valve in order to get fluid to the front calipers. This is particularly true if you try to bleed them with a pressure bleeder.
 
#33 ·
Thanks chuckha62, You answered one of my very near future questions.

It appears the hold off was simply cleaned and repainted to look new... not cool.

Unfortunately my daily summer driver, 25 years old, blew a transmission on the way home from Summit Racing after picking up my last brake parts for the GTO... how frustrating. A dead car, a repair bill and I didn't get to work on my ride.
 
#34 ·
Well, today didn't go as planned... but I did get some stuff done.

First since I don't have a stock rear end the lines I ordered are "different" than what I needed but I made them work for now while I track down the proper lines.



The "dip" is missing but this will work for now.



The rear lines are all hooked up with the new soft line as well.



Front to rear line went in easier than expected with some replacement clips.





Any one have a "trick" to get this clip installed?



I did a lot of cleaning today, eliminating what rust I do have on parts. These front caliper bolts were soaked in vinegar overnight and wire brushed. I made sure they were free or blockages inside too.



I was able to get the front soft lines on and installed self-bleeders but...



The hard lines I received were incorrect. They were for a disc brake conversion car not a factory disc brake car so I could not finish today - hence it didn't go as planned to be on the road tomorrow morning. New front brake lines are supposed to be drop shipped Monday from the manufacturer.

So... I started replacing shocks...



I found this today while researching rear ends. I'll crack mine open tomorrow or Monday and figure out what I have.



I also replaced my sway bar end links.

More to come... Dan
 
#38 ·
Thanks guys.

ALKYGTO that gives me an idea, thanks. I'll let you know if it works - and I'll try yours too.



To install those clips use a Very dull chisel (one with the sharp edge completely ground off to about 1/8 to 3/16 wide tip) and smack with a hammer.

Watch your thumb! :cheers
:agree
Sometimes the hoses have to be twisted in just the right way to get them to bottom out in the bracket so you can get the clips on.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top