All Original 1969 Pontiac Lemans Photos attached - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 5 (permalink) Old 10-06-2017, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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All Original 1969 Pontiac Lemans Photos attached

Hey there's a guy trying to sell me his mom's mostly Original 3 owner 1969 Lemans for 4k OBO, says most offers considered
Its claimed to have(he says he's sure) a #'s matching pontiac 350 that's not running and said the car sat for a year or so. He said needs to be towed.
Has a/c, crank windows he's not sure about other options.
Th350 auto trans
Has pmd caps
Says it doesn't need a lot to run. Then said, only reason it's not running is because it needs a battery, says he has the points and condenser, but not dwell meter and that's why it's not running.
Hood rust it needs work, around windows rusted, rust around trunk, but he says floor, trunk pans and underbody are ok/good.
Paints bad, has bubbles, rust, dings.
One problem was the Hurricane and a lot of flooding in the area. But he claims it wasn't affected.
I'm trying to find out more info on the car from seller as we speak.
What do you guys think about this Lemans, what would be a good price and value for this 69 as is?
Any feedback would be appreciated; value, what to look for on these, common problems, etc. Just want to hear from the experts on these cars before I buy. Ready to start a new project!
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Last edited by FrankC.; 10-06-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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post #2 of 5 (permalink) Old 10-06-2017, 05:59 PM
 
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His mom's car? OK, does it have a clean title and does he have it in hand for your to view?

OK, I'm going to be hard on you. First, why is there mud up to the rear rims? Isn't that what I'm seeing? I would get the VIN and bring it to my insurance agent to make sure that an insurance claim has not been turned in on the car IF it was flood damaged and the car has been classified as "Salvage." If it has, you will most likely never get it registered again.

Second, the fact that he does not have a dwell meter to get the car running is BS. You install the new condensor/points and gap the points. Dwell meter can fine tune the points or tell you exactly what the dwell is, but you DO NOT need a dwell meter. I never used a dwell meter and my cars ran just fine.

I don't know how much you know about cars, but I would never take anyone's word for what they perceive as a solid car versus what I know is a solid car. Have looked at hundreds of cars over my lifetime that the seller said was a solid car only to find out that they were sales blind. Really ticks me off when I have to travel 1-2hours to look at it only to find a rust bucket that is a parts car - and I ask all the "right" questions.

It sounds like you are already starting off with a rough car that will need much work. Being honest, I would not expect it to be a turn key and drive car if that is your intention. You did not state miles. These cars are not like todays auto's that can go 300,000 miles. I suspect you will need to go through all the key components and rebuild - engine, trans, front-end, brakes, suspension, exhaust, etc.. Then there is going to be the body repairs and I don't know what you can do or will have to farm out. Prices are based on your skills and who you may have to pay for those things you cannot do. BUT.....maybe you get lucky and with minimum work can at least be driven - hard to say when it has not been on the road in a year and won't start.

The price, in my opinion, is way too high. I would not offer anything until I looked at the car and checked out that title/VIN. Match the VIN of the car with the VIN stamped on the frame to ensure it is legit and they match - same thing most DMV departments do nowadays.

Bring a bright flashlight. Crawl under the car and inspect the frame, body mounts, floors, etc.. You want to start with a solid frame - floors/body mounts can be replaced, but at $$$. Look through the front windshield where the dash meets it. Generally they rot there and that requires windshield removal & replacement metal. Same at the rear - bubbling indicates rot/rust under the paint. Look under the door sills - many don't look here and a lot of moisture builds up in the lower part of the door and can rust out. Look down into the backs of the fenders for rot/repair work. Trunk lids/hoods rot away under the various supports and edges/lips. If you see undercoating that is not factory, good change there may be issues. These cars did get undercoated floors from the factory which can preserve them, but it will be dried out and probably flaking, not fresh.

Bring a battery. Drop it in and check ALL lights, wipers, turn signals, brake lights, interior lights, etc.. The engine should spin over on the key even if it won't start. Things that don't work will cost more $$$.

Determine how much work it really needs and then if you still want a project car knowing it cost upwards of 15K (plus or minus depending on your skills) to rebuild it, then go for it. It is not a GTO, so as a Lemans, it will not pull in the same pricing. Most do the GTO clone, but you will have to really add more $$$ and may be upside down when all is said and done.

So as it sits without any more info, pics, or first hand inspection, I would put a value on it between $1800 - $2200 if it is a solid car and does not run. You might want to put a deposit on it with the agreement that you will pay him in full if you can get the engine running.

Just my honest, unqualified, and harsh opinion - so take it with a grain of salt.
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post #3 of 5 (permalink) Old 10-06-2017, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
His mom's car? OK, does it have a clean title and does he have it in hand for your to view?

OK, I'm going to be hard on you. First, why is there mud up to the rear rims? Isn't that what I'm seeing? I would get the VIN and bring it to my insurance agent to make sure that an insurance claim has not been turned in on the car IF it was flood damaged and the car has been classified as "Salvage." If it has, you will most likely never get it registered again.

Second, the fact that he does not have a dwell meter to get the car running is BS. You install the new condensor/points and gap the points. Dwell meter can fine tune the points or tell you exactly what the dwell is, but you DO NOT need a dwell meter. I never used a dwell meter and my cars ran just fine.

I don't know how much you know about cars, but I would never take anyone's word for what they perceive as a solid car versus what I know is a solid car. Have looked at hundreds of cars over my lifetime that the seller said was a solid car only to find out that they were sales blind. Really ticks me off when I have to travel 1-2hours to look at it only to find a rust bucket that is a parts car - and I ask all the "right" questions.

It sounds like you are already starting off with a rough car that will need much work. Being honest, I would not expect it to be a turn key and drive car if that is your intention. You did not state miles. These cars are not like todays auto's that can go 300,000 miles. I suspect you will need to go through all the key components and rebuild - engine, trans, front-end, brakes, suspension, exhaust, etc.. Then there is going to be the body repairs and I don't know what you can do or will have to farm out. Prices are based on your skills and who you may have to pay for those things you cannot do. BUT.....maybe you get lucky and with minimum work can at least be driven - hard to say when it has not been on the road in a year and won't start.

The price, in my opinion, is way too high. I would not offer anything until I looked at the car and checked out that title/VIN. Match the VIN of the car with the VIN stamped on the frame to ensure it is legit and they match - same thing most DMV departments do nowadays.

Bring a bright flashlight. Crawl under the car and inspect the frame, body mounts, floors, etc.. You want to start with a solid frame - floors/body mounts can be replaced, but at $$$. Look through the front windshield where the dash meets it. Generally they rot there and that requires windshield removal & replacement metal. Same at the rear - bubbling indicates rot/rust under the paint. Look under the door sills - many don't look here and a lot of moisture builds up in the lower part of the door and can rust out. Look down into the backs of the fenders for rot/repair work. Trunk lids/hoods rot away under the various supports and edges/lips. If you see undercoating that is not factory, good change there may be issues. These cars did get undercoated floors from the factory which can preserve them, but it will be dried out and probably flaking, not fresh.

Bring a battery. Drop it in and check ALL lights, wipers, turn signals, brake lights, interior lights, etc.. The engine should spin over on the key even if it won't start. Things that don't work will cost more $$$.

Determine how much work it really needs and then if you still want a project car knowing it cost upwards of 15K (plus or minus depending on your skills) to rebuild it, then go for it. It is not a GTO, so as a Lemans, it will not pull in the same pricing. Most do the GTO clone, but you will have to really add more $$$ and may be upside down when all is said and done.

So as it sits without any more info, pics, or first hand inspection, I would put a value on it between $1800 - $2200 if it is a solid car and does not run. You might want to put a deposit on it with the agreement that you will pay him in full if you can get the engine running.

Just my honest, unqualified, and harsh opinion - so take it with a grain of salt.
I want to take this time out to say thank you Jim for your honest opinion. It wasn't harsh at all, I prefer a serious view rather than a sugar coated one. Also, I appreciate you taking the time out of the day to help a new member out. He didnt say if it was clean but he said he can show it to me tommorrow and said something about after a charity event. Yes, mud, thats what your seeing, I saw it also. I believe It may have been flooded. Yea, I'm not new to the industry, but I called bs on that dwell meter excuse also, then he said it's matching #'s. But, Spot on my man!! Just recently traveled 4hs to view a 68 Nova ss basically "Rust Free" only to find out that the only thing that should've been free was the car. It was a POS! And waste of time/gas. Thanks, what #'s do these cars pull with most work done or fully restored? Worth the rebuild? The guy was selling me on how "rare" and valuable these things are getting and finding one original like that is worth the $$. Thanks for all the insight and advice (especially on the door sills). I will take this knowledge and add to mine to. But, my skills will chop those prices as I do just about everything myself. Money isn't the biggest factor but I'm damn sure not about to give someone a free 4k for a car thats not really worth it. Also, I asked him could I do that and get it running and got no response. Either he doesn't really know his stuff or he's just trying to get me to show up. It's possibly another 3h drive ! I might go full ape. Thanks again Jim.
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post #4 of 5 (permalink) Old 10-07-2017, 09:15 AM
 
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hello Frank,
I agree with PontiacJim here but maybe would go a bit higher on price to 2000-2500 if that 350 runs. It is a Lemans, so never will get your money back out of a resto in my opinion. Restored Lemans may only take in 12-14K in perfect condition, and in this case you would probably easily spend 10k in parts plus hundreds of hours in labor $$, and then paint $$. I spent over $10k in only parts restoring my 69 GTO, kept an excel file of the parts and costs if you want pm me and i'll gladly share it.

If it runs you could maybe get away with a poor mans resto just to get it roadworthy, maybe spend $3-4K on brakes, exhaust, engine top end, wheels, tires, etc. and use it as a daily driver fun car. Then maybe try to sell for 5-$6k down the road.
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post #5 of 5 (permalink) Old 10-07-2017, 10:08 AM
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That phrase, "a matching #'s 350#" bothers me. Since it's a '69, it should be "THE matching #'s 350". In '69, Pontiac engines had the last several digits of the vehicle's VIN number stamped into the block (down low, vertically, next to the timing cover). When it comes to matching #'s engines in a '69 Pontiac, to quote "Highlander":

...........................................There can be only one...................................
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