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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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GTO Judge Purchase Advice.

Hello All,

I am new to the forums. I have come here requesting advice. Do you think that this '70 GTO judge is worth a look? I have no previous knowledge of classic GTO's especially judges.

Although, I do have some knowledge restoring other cars, example being mustangs. It appears the owner has some of the original paperwork, which is appealing.

Take a look for yourselves: (you will have to copy and paste to your browser)
1970 GTO JUDGE PROJECT


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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Tyler, depending on the distance from you, getting the VIN and ordering the Pontiac Historical Services documents might be a good idea. You would know for sure what the car was when manufactured. Matt

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 04:37 PM
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This "Judge" was stripped of it's identity. If this is a real Judge the only thing it has is a series of numbers (the VIN) to show for it, this is what you would be purchasing. The rear deck spoiler is missing, and the motor is not correct.

The car has not been running but a "minor" tune up should have it running? How does he know, he hasn't had it running?

You have to ask yourself: The paperwork says it's a Judge but nothing else indicates it is ( I do see some Ram Air parts in the trunk). The asking price IMO is high for the shape its in. The word "Judge" is affixed to the price tag. To restore this to its glory you are going to sink a lot of loot in it. Do I want to spend the money to make this Judged again? Do I just want to fix it up so I can drive it and not worry if its Judge correct? If so, then you have lesser expensive alternatives.

DO NOT rely on the sellers proclamation of paperwork. Get your own PHS.

You say you are not versed on GTO's especially Judges. Does it matter to you if its a Judge? Far too many people put too much stock into a VIN number and will pass up a car because of the numbers game. In this case, if this is a Judge there is nothing I can see from the pictures to indicate it is one. Again... unless you get the proper Judged motor, transmission, RA system etc and put it back as one, it will only be one in numbers. Does it matter to you? If it does then you will need deep pockets, if not then you can purchase a GTO in good shape for less than what you'll sink into this to restore it.

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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 05:59 PM
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Knowledge is power. If I were in the market for a Judge, I'd get books on the subject and learn all there was to learn. This is not a small investment. What GTO Judge said. In my opinion, and I'm a GTO guy, this particular car would cost $40,000 minimum and probably more to make it a $40,000 car again. And you'd have to buy it, first. So, $52,500 MINIMUM for a 40k Judge. Not worth it. You can buy the same car, done and driving needing nothing, for 40k or less right now. My opinion? It's a poor deal. Realistic price? 5-7k, and still not a money maker or even a break-even. The only reason to buy t his car would be if you're determined to do a restoration for the experience and enjoyment of it. If you're looking at a cheap way to get into a Judge, this isn't it!
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 06:03 PM
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Not worth it IMO. If you can get it for maybe half that. No more than $8000 if it is a real Judge and definitely not until you have the PHS paperwork in hand. Non original motor will hurt the value of this car for the rest of it's existence. Non original motor is a price killer in a restored Judge.

These days IMO if you want a deal buy a restored car. The price for a resto usually exceeds the value of the car in the current market (I'm talking full frame off resto) and buying a car done with all the paperwork in the long run will be cheaper and you can enjoy it now without having to deal with the hassles of resto shops, vendors, delays, cost over runs, and searching out "rare" parts.


Just my 2 cents.
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 07:52 PM
 
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x4 anything but the numbers (if they match) that made that car a judge appears to have been stripped from it. Should'nt the rear valance be cut out for twin straight tips on the 70' judge or was that 71'?

http://www.oldcarmemories.com/images.../70judge-3.jpg

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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-27-2013, 10:43 PM
 
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Judge

That car has been on eBay recently (as a Buy-It-Now) and didn't sell. The $12,500 price seems pretty steep for a non-numbers matching, unrestored car. Still, a restored Judge has considerably more value than a restored "run-of-the-mill" GTO. I bet it was a pretty car back in its showroom day.

I doubt the seller would forge the PHS Docs, but you never know. The original factory options would factor into your decision, providing you're intent is a Day One Restoration. You might want to ask for a photo copy/fax of the PHS Docs.

Is it worth the price? You'll need to touch the car and see its sheet metal. The rear valance is off the car (gone?), the hood has hood pins (yuck), and the Endura Bumper is going to be an expensive fix (Endurabumper). It appears to need an entire interior kit.

If you intend to flip it I'd pass on this one and find a numbers-matching Judge instead.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-28-2013, 07:06 AM
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I noticed he said he had the PHS docs, but didn't mention anything about that they say If it was a real Judge and I was advertising it, I'd have said something like "real, PHS-documented Judge". I also agree there's a ton of work left to do on this car, and from a pure financial standpoint, the only way it could be "worth it" would be if it was an extremely rare, low-production count, car. But then the original engine is already gone so maybe not even then. So, unless for some reason you're just emotionally attached to this car and are willing to take it on even though the odds bet says it'll cost you way more than it will ever be "worth", I'd say pass.

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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-28-2013, 07:43 AM
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Ask the seller for a picture of the build sheet, The factory build sheet will show Judge option RPO 332 or UPC WT1 for CA built cars. Also, the judge was equiped with a heavy duty trunk torgue rod on the left side to hold the additional weight of the spoiler.

I agree with geeteeohguy, a complete, frame off, nut and bolt restoration could easily exceed $40 K.

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