Illegal Car? - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
 
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Illegal Car?

Here's the deal. A member here has been looking at car to purchase and passed this one along from Gateway Classic Cars. https://www.gatewayclassiccars.com/H...c-Tempest#desc

In checking out the car, I am using the GTO Association ID Guide to decode the car. Now I am no expert on ID'ing a car, but like most of us think I can read a VIN and Data Tag. I may be seeing this wrong, so passing this on for others to see what I am seeing. IF I am not mistaken, this Vin does not match the body type and neither the VIN or Data Tag match each other. Am I getting senile?

Car is a 2 Dr HT in the photo. The VIN says it is a 2 Dr Sports Coupe, ie a post car or what we call a 2 Dr Sedan. Here is how I read the Vin: 2=Pontiac, 33=Tempest, 27=2 Dr Sport Coupe (Sedan), 5=1965, P=Pontiac (Final Assembly Plant), 2=indicates V8 engine. I know that the different plants used different type of rivets to secure the VIN, but what I see is mostly the "rosette" style rivets on the 1965's. So I don't have enough knowledge to confirm what rivet head should have been used.

Now the Data Tag. Here is how I read this one: KAN=Final Assembly Plant, 65=1965, 2=Pontiac, 37= Lemans, 37=2 Dr Hardtop.

So in comparing the VIN to the Data Tag with respect to Final Assembly Plant, Body Style, and Model Type, they do not match. So, is it a Pontac or Kansas built car, a hardtop or sedan, a Tempest or Lemans?

Next, look at the Data Tag. It has the familiar "5N" on the lower left. The Option Code for the GTO on a Lemans is "5N." But again, the VIN says Tempest and the GTO Option was on the Lemans.

The car is red with a red interior. On the Data Tag you see 217 for the Trim and B-B for the Paint Code. Trim option 217 is listed as Dark Blue, and B-B is the paint code for Charcoal Blue.

This is how I am deciphering the car's VIN and Data Tag according to the GTO Assoc. ID Guide. Am I not seeing this correctly? What am I missing? Has the VIN been taken from another car and put on this one? And why don't the VIN and Data Tags match?
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 04:34 PM
 
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I agree with you. Anyone unfortunate enough to buy that car repainted "Arrest Me Red" might get just that! Probably get hung up with insurance and with DMV.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 05:59 PM
 
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Classic case as to why it is a federal offense (aka: a felony) to buy, sell or remove VIN tags.

But many car people think nothing of it because they are above the law.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks to you both, I thought I was reading everything correctly that was posted with the car. Just did not add up. The sad part is that someone who doesn't know better could wind up buying the car and find themselves in hot water real quick.

It also goes to show how these classic car show room types don't know squat about cars, but don't have a problem being the middle man to cash in on the profits - even if it might be stolen or VIN altered. Buyer beware and do your homework before making any purchase.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 08:38 PM
 
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PontiacJim I am awed by your knowledge of cars and willingness to help. I have gained much good info. from you and this forum.

Side note: I am a member who does military honors for our vets. We charge no fee and perform ceremonies and same uniforms exactly as active duty but active duty seldom participate. At a funeral a few days ago I mentioned that I was in search of a car. He told me another member has a 1967 Mustang that was pretty original. This guy got his car from an uncle who has a new car dealership. Ran it through his dealership to check things out. Car was originally from Nevada and he has owned it for six years. He added an air conditioner 3 months ago. I have looked at it once with another inspection Tuesday who has some knowledge of mid-60-mid-75 cars.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 09:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
Thanks to you both, I thought I was reading everything correctly that was posted with the car. Just did not add up. The sad part is that someone who doesn't know better could wind up buying the car and find themselves in hot water real quick.

It also goes to show how these classic car show room types don't know squat about cars, but don't have a problem being the middle man to cash in on the profits - even if it might be stolen or VIN altered. Buyer beware and do your homework before making any purchase.
I recently helped out a friend scope out this.....



It is a 1968 Chevelle SS 396 that the guy claimed it was a 1 owner, numbers matching car that he bought from the original owner.

Now, my friend is a Chevy numbers encyclopedia guy, I frankly don't care about numbers but go more for condition vs. price.

My friend was all up & down on this car and said it was 100% numbers and date code matching.

Without going into every issue I found I will just focus on one.

This numbers matching car that came from the factory as a WHITE car per the trim tag and a few areas that showed original WHITE factory overspray had obvious YELLOW overspray on the inside of the rear body panel around the tail lamp openings, the undersides of both quarter panels as well as the underside of the package shelf. This was not urethane primer or any other type primer, this was YELLOW paint overspray that appeared to be from the factory.

My conclusion was that some time in this car's life it suffered rear end damage, possibly a severe impact, and was repaired with either a used rear body section or used cowl back body assembly. This also appeared to be done at a much earlier time due to the amount of age from dust & dirt as well as some rust repair to the left quarter. This apparent repair also happen much earlier than the fairly recent front end collision that was hastily repaired. And the list went on.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-02-2019, 11:20 PM
 
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The grill of that numbers matching 1968 Chevelle SS396 says "1969" to me.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-03-2019, 07:18 AM
 
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Baring are the mis-matched codes the big red flag with that '65 is the VIN tag.
Replacing TRIM tags with an OE correct tag or having a new one made isn't an issue.

But when I look at the VIN not having the Rosette rivets and globs of thick paint over it,
This is a major flag for me on most any 60's GM car.
I know there were exceptions to the rules along the way but that jumps right out.

Hell you can even buy the rivets now, So as pointed out this is truly a case of an Ass-hat Dealer/seller.

I would hope anyone with half a brain cell interested in any car would do their research.
It's not 1970 anymore and research resources are at our fingertips.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-03-2019, 04:28 PM
 
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The grill of that numbers matching 1968 Chevelle SS396 says "1969" to me.
Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was a '68 or '69.

But then, it's just another Chevy, not a Pontiac so who cares.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Unread 11-03-2019, 05:34 PM
 
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Yes, that is 1969 front clip and those are '69 SS stripes.
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  Pontiac GTO Forum > The 1964-1974 Pontiac Tempest, Lemans & GTO > 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO General Discussion

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