The Value of my 1965 GTO - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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The Value of my 1965 GTO

Maybe this topic has been covered before but it's worth asking. I am the very proud owner of a PHS documented 1965 GTO. its a complete car that is correct except for the replaced conversion to a '66 tri power set up. Yes, I have the original carb and manifold boxed up on the garage. I guess my question is how much longer are these correct cars going to hold on to their value before the pendulum starts to swing the other way or has that already happened?
Right now i see that cars such as mine that are original cars that have been lightly restored are bringing anywhere from the early 50's to the mid 60's. Especially if purchased thru the vintage dealer network.
What I am thinking is that we are either very near or at the apex of values because the pool of interested buyers are getting, like me....Older and most of us either have the car we want or have recently sold the car.. I remember when a 57 Belaire Conv could bring over $100K. Not anymore. The buyer pool for these care are now in their mid to late 70's. I am 69 and I am surmising that our cars [muscle from the 60's] are about where the 50's cars were 7-10 years ago. Another words, they peaked and are now coming down each year..not a drastic fall off but a few thousand every year.

Although i love my car, it's still an investment for me. I bought the car knowing that someday I will want/need to get the cash back out. I would like to think I can get my money back even though I purchased my car during the last few years so I feel I am close to the top of the curve price wise.

I have upgraded the brakes and the suspension and recognize that I was doing that for my driving pleasure [and safety] and not expecting to re coup those dollars. By the way, if anyone is upgrading their suspension, may I recommend the Street Grip series for Road Tech..It's pricey but man oh man did it change the personality of the car. It drives and handles like a modern vehicle.
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:39 PM
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Sorry to inform you but your car isn't an investment it is a hobby and the value of your car is the pleasure you derive from owning and driving it.
I have close to 90K into mine and would be lucky to get 50K for it.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:34 PM
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I am currently shopping around for renewal of my classic car insurance. Went to hagerty to get a "quote" and in that process they asked for what I thought the value was of my car. They also had a "helper" link next to it so that they could help you estimate that value. This is just what an insurance company might think it is worth. YMMV. The true value is what a willing buyer will give you for it. :-)

Since I bought my car new in 65, there is no doubt that I could get my money back. $3600.00 :-)
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 04:17 PM
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70K with Hagerty cost me 410 a year, it is almost time for renewal and I plan on upping it to 90K.
All they required were some pictures for approval on the amount, they actually told me I was under insured on the renewal notice and suggested I bump it up 8K.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 08:38 PM
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Price on any car is hard to nail down - its only worth what someone will pay. Often, car owners believe their cars are worth far more than what someone will pay for it. I have been seeing many of the same cars for sale year after year, noting the price drop, but still up for sale.

Here is the big problem I see. These cars, or any older car, can only be a "toy." For a "toy" they have become way too expensive for the average guy, so your market becomes very narrow. Those who were snapping them up in the past were the affluent set who wanted to relive their high school/era days and price was not an issue. Then there were the collectors who wanted the rarest of the rare who simply purchased them low to sell high, but you don't daily drive them when they hit some of the absurd prices they fetch at auction and driving them deteriorates the value of one that is 100% documented as original or restored to better than new.

That crowd is now years older and in retirement. Looking at what they overpaid on some of these cars tends them to believe they need to collect the same purchase price or better because they bought the car as an investment that should go up in value.

Along comes the next generation who did not grow up with these cars and do not have the connection that the "older generation" had, and do not see the value in the car that the "older generation" did and paid dearly for. Then, the next generation is more interested in the highly popular LS line of Chevy engines and electronic componentry. They don't care about carburetors, point distributors, mechanical fuel pumps, iron blocks/heads, transmissions without overdrive, factory brakes & suspensions, 13 MPG, or 14"-15" wheels.

So the younger generation has a completely different view of the "older generation" cars. Original will become meaningless - just like any '41 Willys coupe. Pontiac powered will go the way of the flathead, replaced by the LS. Who will be around to actually tune or work on such antiquated iron? Know anybody who still can adjust the valves on an L-head straight six? So the six gets ditched and a more contemporary engine/trans fills the void.

So the person who has the vision to buy a GTO low and then incorporate all the contemporary items that this next generation wants, will sell his/her car high. Those who have kept the car original hoping to sell the car at a higher profit as measured against what they paid or invested, may be disappointed and take a big loss on their investment - just like so many other market share investments. I see the trend in car prices continue to decline in the next few years and it will indeed level off to a level that is supported by the younger generation's wallet and by those who choose to buy these antiques and then fix them up the way they envision them.

That said, you may be taking a hit on your investment and I suspect the longer you sit on it, or refrain from selling it, the lower the selling price will go. If it were me and I purchased the car as an investment, I would put the car on the market now at the higher price and see where it goes until I found a buyer that struck a number where I was willing to let it go rather than sit on it for the next higher bidder. Like any investment, you have to know when to let go rather than hope and hold out and then lose even more.

Just my opinion on it all.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 08:21 AM
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The original performance Pontiac market is a wide spectrum, beginning with the Trophy 389A*Catalinas & ending with the last of the traditional Pontiac engine T/A's, near twenty years later. With a lot of Chevy drivetrain cr#p Fbodys being built in the 80's, the continuation of the original era died, & the later performance segment leading F-bodys & late Holden/GTO's have their own markets.

The original era ('64-74) GTO market is a subset of the wide '60's -70's performance Pontiac spectrum. Within that subset, the high price setters have consistently been the very desirable color combination, highest performance models, either restored to the very highest exacting detail, or as extremely clean low mile highest performance model original examples, each avenue has commanded top values. Everything else has trailed in price valuations! that includes what Jim has referred to as "Toys", another segment which consists of the local show car / occasional driver. To not acknowledge the segment price leaders being investment grade muscle cars is naive. not all can qualify for such a label, but when values rise, the segment leading investment grade models tend to pull the rest of the pack up in valuation slightly.

The above noted, anyone who has been very active in the performance Pontiac market can convey the contemporary day owner modified/ "modernized" vehicle is no where near the standard bearer, price wise, in any of the performance Pontiac market segments. For those that believe they can through their own capabilitys, streetrod build the rarest & most desirable original GTO or F-body models, spending serious funds, to have a vehicle that stands out while having the ability to handle & perform at a level they feel is comparable with late model muscle, that's all fine & good. it's your money, but selling prices on such cars are not bearing out anywhere near the market average for same year highly desirable highest factory performance GTO's in what many would consider even #2 condition. Modifying much less rare models, saves such inclined "builders" a high entry price, but does not guarantee, when needed, original parts will be more affordable.

As a modified Pontiac, the only market segment price leaders have been a few factory race cars that were modified by Pontiac Engineering & subsequent purchaser. The previous Randy Williams owned/Tieman restored Union Park '63 Tempest wagon & the following '63 LeMans Coupe are fine examples of their own body styles/models. One should note that these '63 Pontiacs have been restored to as prepared to race in 1963 They are not a creation of the builders imagination, a recently compiled array of "Day 2 parts", or the cultimation of a spending spree of hot ticket items presented at the last SEMA show or hyped in magazines, websites, or contraption "building" cable TV show.

Back to the OP's '65 GTO. Nowhere has he noted the factory options his '65 GTO was built with, or the factory color combination. Also not noted is if the GTO is still that color combo, & most importantly, an accurate summation of the vehicles condition. All help determine desirability & value. A good percentage of nice driver condition local showcar early GTO's typically fall into the mid #2 -mid #3 condition car. Many would agree the best way to convey value is to watch the money change hands on the sale of similar condition same model vehicles, that may be through trusted shared information of a private sale, or through auction results minus seller's fees. Insurance payoff mean little.
As far as auctions go, no reserve auctions are a double edged sword, many times, what a seller believes his/her vehicle is worth just doesn't come to pass. On the other hand, occasionally, there will be an event where there is a massive run up in prices, yet in the end run, the hangover is temporary. In the late 80's-early '90's, there was publicized the high gavel prices of several persian sand colored '59 Eldo Biaritz converts. Lot of hype! Later it was revealed, a group of several owners were bidding on each others '59 Biaritz converts to create the illusion of high values... what a deal! More recently, in Jan 2014 @ BJ, there was the craziness & circus atmosphere of eleven '69 RAIII Judges being presented through out the auction for bidding. All gaveled at very high prices for their actual quality of restoration/condition. A few month later, printed & online "Value Guides" parroted the rise in price "values" of the '69 Judge model. In the real '69 Judge owner/hard core restorer/enthusiast community, most realized the comedy of the BJ sale of those particular cars. Any other year, any other BJ auction, there was no way such condition "restored" Judges could bring that much money. Unfortunately, such results are not filtered into the publication of such "Value Guides". At the same time, many private sale prices are seldom factored in either.

In considering selling the '65 GTO, only you know your health, revenue streams, expenses, & what makes you happy. If you feel that it's time to sell, none of us have a crystal ball. For one, I don't buy into comparisons of the market of original Pontiac era muscle car to that the market of Tri-Fives, not as a longtime participant in the performance Pontiac market, that said, I'm not a member of the local musclecar cruiser bunch/lawn chair crowd. Neither are the majority of longtime Pontiac restorer friends & collectors.
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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I am in agreement with all of the posted comments. When I spoke of the car being an investment, I was not referring to the car appreciating in value. I think I should have used a different term.
My car is a very correct original color Blue Mist Slate [one repaint in 2014] with the original interior in #2 condition. Shows no appreciable wear. I have all the owner history including all the original docs. The car was not highly optioned. Kind of the standard run of the mill car for the period. Power brakes, power steering, rear defroster, Motorola AM/FM etc.
This car is not my first classic..I have owned Fords, Chevy's, Mopars, Shelby's. I generally have sold them for about what I paid, give or take. I am guessing I can do the same with the GTO next year when I plan on selling the car. The difference these days is that you have an international market because of the internet. Years past, it was what ever the localized market would support.
I appreciate all the comments and effort that you put into your thoughtful posts. I got the answer that I was looking for. Thanks!
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  Pontiac GTO Forum > The 1964-1974 Pontiac Tempest, Lemans & GTO > 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO General Discussion

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