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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
 
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decoded my 350

I knew our '66 had a 350 in it when we got it in 2013, but I never bothered to decode it until now. Here's what I found:

68/69 350 block code - 9790079
July 5, 1968 date code - G058
#17 heads both dated early to mid '67 - 265hp version
The VIN is hard to make out, but i think it says 29R131581

The weird parts is the code on the front of the block. It's stamped "XS", which would be a 400 in '68 or a 350 in '69, right?

Long story short, it's not an H.O. like i thought. Is it worth doing a cam/intake/headers with these heads? It shows to be like 9.25:1, and if i could get 300hp at the wheels I'd be happy for the time being.

'66 GTO 4-speed
'07 Yukon Denali, headers, tune
'74 K20, 468, SM465, NP205, Holley EFI
'79 Z28, Vortec 350, M20
'90 Suburban 4x4, 4" lift, OD green, future 4BT swap
'99 Formula, 6.0, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc (sold)
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 05:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rumblebox View Post
I knew our '66 had a 350 in it when we got it in 2013, but I never bothered to decode it until now. Here's what I found:

68/69 350 block code - 9790079
July 5, 1968 date code - G058
#17 heads both dated early to mid '67 - 265hp version
The VIN is hard to make out, but i think it says 29R131581

The weird parts is the code on the front of the block. It's stamped "XS", which would be a 400 in '68 or a 350 in '69, right?

Long story short, it's not an H.O. like i thought. Is it worth doing a cam/intake/headers with these heads? It shows to be like 9.25:1, and if i could get 300hp at the wheels I'd be happy for the time being.

What does it matter? Why waste your time, energy, and money when your goal is an LS swap?

Why waste members time?

https://www.gtoforum.com/f12/pontiac...though-134491/
https://www.gtoforum.com/f178/ls-swa...9/index24.html
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"...if i could get 300hp at the wheels I'd be happy for the time being."


You won't get 300 @ the wheels unless you stroke it.

Easy with a 455 or even a correctly built 400.

Can also get 500 torque @ around 3000 rpm, with a 455.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
What does it matter? Why waste your time, energy, and money when your goal is an LS swap?

Why waste members time?

https://www.gtoforum.com/f12/pontiac...though-134491/
https://www.gtoforum.com/f178/ls-swa...9/index24.html

You have a serious problem. There are far more impprtant things in the world to get offended over. I used to be like you regarding vintage guitars, but if some ******* wants to put EMG's in a 59 Les Paul, I don't get offended anymore. It's his guitar to do with as he pleases....... The exception in this case is that the LS swap is an actual improvemet.

'66 GTO 4-speed
'07 Yukon Denali, headers, tune
'74 K20, 468, SM465, NP205, Holley EFI
'79 Z28, Vortec 350, M20
'90 Suburban 4x4, 4" lift, OD green, future 4BT swap
'99 Formula, 6.0, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc (sold)

Last edited by rumblebox; 05-18-2019 at 11:22 AM.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bigD View Post
"...if i could get 300hp at the wheels I'd be happy for the time being."


You won't get 300 @ the wheels unless you stroke it.

Easy with a 455 or even a correctly built 400.

Can also get 500 torque @ around 3000 rpm, with a 455.
In that case, i think Jim's sarcastic remarks were accidental truth.

'66 GTO 4-speed
'07 Yukon Denali, headers, tune
'74 K20, 468, SM465, NP205, Holley EFI
'79 Z28, Vortec 350, M20
'90 Suburban 4x4, 4" lift, OD green, future 4BT swap
'99 Formula, 6.0, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc (sold)
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 12:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rumblebox View Post
You have a serious problem. There are far more impprtant things in the world to get offended over. I used to be like you regarding vintage guitars, but if some ******* wants to put EMG's in a 59 Les Paul, I don't get offended anymore. It's his guitar to do with as he pleases....... The exception in this case is that the LS swap is an actual improvemet.

Nope, no problem and not offended by your intentions or reply. Honest question actually.

First, the money spent on building a 350 to achieve 300 RWHP won't be inexpensive per say as any Pontiac build is not inexpensive. Can you get 300 RWHP, probably so, and more. But at what price? A stoker kit from Butler increasing the 350 to 383CI and matching top end will do it. Search the web and you will find such a build. Add a belt driven blower, they make bolt on kits that would get your power numbers.

bigD speaks truth in that starting with a big cube engine as your base will start right out of the box with what you re looking for. The 400/461 stroker kit is probably the mot bang for your buck in building the short block, and then you go from there with the top end. Again, at what $price?

But, like most Chevy supporters, you seem to focus on HP numbers when a Pontiac engine is built to aim more at torque at lower RPM's. Just got the latest Summit flyer. They have a crate LS3, 430 HP @ 5,900 RPM & 425 Ft Lbs TQ @ 4,600 RPM, for $7,362. What it does not include is the engine controller kit, wiring harness, starter, high pressure fuel system, accessory drives, and other components.

First look at the HP/TQ numbers. Have you ever truly read any engine specs for a Pontiac engine - apparently not. Lets use the standard factory rated GTO 360 HP engine. Nothing fancy and it is called stock. 360 HP @ 5,100 RPM & 445 Ft Lbs TQ @ 3,600 RPM. Note, as I pointed out earlier, a Pontiac engine is built for torque and torque moves these heavy cars. The Pontiac powered car pulls away from the LS3 as it reaches its TQ at a lower RPM just waiting for the LS3 to catch up. And, if you were to review a graph of that torque band, you will see a broader and better torque band across the lower RPM range and up through the mid range. Bye-Bye LS3 cobbled together Pontiac guy.

Ah, but then the next argument will be the HP comparison. The LS3 shows PEAK horsepower at a way higher RPM than the Pontiac, which the engine does not have to achieve. What we do not see is the HP curve showing the side-by-side HP levels at each given RPM. What is the LS3 HP at 5,100 RPM's? Keep in mind that the 5,100 RPM's for the Pontiac are factory ratings when in fact, the engine would easily turn 5,700 - 6,000 RPM's when blueprinted and this also adds MORE horsepower and torque. So while the LS3 is screaming to its higher RPM's, I have already shifted the Pontiac engine, placing it back into its lovely tire shredding torque range and you are crying in your beer watching my tail lights walk away as you come up with some silly excuse as to the fuel filter must have been clogged or one of the coil packs went bad.

Now, that is the factory HP & TQ. BUT, when you go to rebuild the 400CI and you add that stroker kit and bring the short block up to a healthy 461 Cubes, you have now increased both the important TQ and HP numbers. Seeing you may be willing to invest 9K or more to set up the Pontiac with an LS3, imagine what that would be in Pontiac dollars. The LS3 would not even come close. You would now have to step up to the LS376/525 engine which by itself goes for almost $9000 - less all your bolt-ons. Of course you will have to change out transmissions and invest in a high dollar rear end assembly to handle the power. And you are going to tell me the LS3 is the better choice? Yeah, if you have the money to pee away. But seeing in the video you have bare feet, can you afford an LS3 upgrade?

So, no, I am not offended. It is your car and you can do whatever you want, I am good with that. But don't try and blow smoke up my butt or any one else's and tell me the LS3 is better. It is DEFINITELY not cheaper. The Pontiac has the same, if not better, potential if you are after HP & TQ. The gas mileage argument is a lame point as you don't build a high powered engine to get gas mileage, but no doubt with the EFI and other electronic improvement added to the Pontiac engine, gas mileage can be brought up pretty good as I had a highway geared 1967 GTO, 4-speed, that would get over 20 MPG on the highway at steady cruise back in the day of 55 MPH speed limits. Dependable, just ask geeteeohguy how many miles he has on his cars.

So again, why bother to invest a dime in a Pontiac build or upgrade when you can invest that same coin into the future LS3 swap. And, why take up members time in receiving engine building help, tips, or other only to say, "well thanks to all, I have decide to go with the LS swap."

So I am NOT offended, but it seems you are.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
Nope, no problem and not offended by your intentions or reply. Honest question actually.

First, the money spent on building a 350 to achieve 300 RWHP won't be inexpensive per say as any Pontiac build is not inexpensive. Can you get 300 RWHP, probably so, and more. But at what price? A stoker kit from Butler increasing the 350 to 383CI and matching top end will do it. Search the web and you will find such a build. Add a belt driven blower, they make bolt on kits that would get your power numbers.
I never intended to build up the 350. I was just hoping to squeeze decent power out of it for the time being with bolt-ons.

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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
bigD speaks truth in that starting with a big cube engine as your base will start right out of the box with what you re looking for. The 400/461 stroker kit is probably the mot bang for your buck in building the short block, and then you go from there with the top end. Again, at what $price?
Cost is one of my main reasons for using an LS over a Pontiac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
But, like most Chevy supporters, you seem to focus on HP numbers when a Pontiac engine is built to aim more at torque at lower RPM's. Just got the latest Summit flyer. They have a crate LS3, 430 HP @ 5,900 RPM & 425 Ft Lbs TQ @ 4,600 RPM, for $7,362. What it does not include is the engine controller kit, wiring harness, starter, high pressure fuel system, accessory drives, and other components.
I can see how that could be perceived, but i can assure you that power under the curve is a huge priority of mine. I would also never pay that kind of money for a crate engine when i can build a 429 stroker with cathedral heads for half the cost, including all the accessories and controller.

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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
First look at the HP/TQ numbers. Have you ever truly read any engine specs for a Pontiac engine - apparently not. Lets use the standard factory rated GTO 360 HP engine. Nothing fancy and it is called stock. 360 HP @ 5,100 RPM & 445 Ft Lbs TQ @ 3,600 RPM.
You're the one who seems to focus solely on numbers here. The 360hp net rating back then translates closer to 300hp and less than 400 torque by today's gross rating, which is not impressive from an engine with that many cubes, regardless of how flat the torque curve is.

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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
Note, as I pointed out earlier, a Pontiac engine is built for torque and torque moves these heavy cars. The Pontiac powered car pulls away from the LS3 as it reaches its TQ at a lower RPM just waiting for the LS3 to catch up. And, if you were to review a graph of that torque band, you will see a broader and better torque band across the lower RPM range and up through the mid range. Bye-Bye LS3 cobbled together Pontiac guy.

Ah, but then the next argument will be the HP comparison. The LS3 shows PEAK horsepower at a way higher RPM than the Pontiac, which the engine does not have to achieve. What we do not see is the HP curve showing the side-by-side HP levels at each given RPM. What is the LS3 HP at 5,100 RPM's? Keep in mind that the 5,100 RPM's for the Pontiac are factory ratings when in fact, the engine would easily turn 5,700 - 6,000 RPM's when blueprinted and this also adds MORE horsepower and torque. So while the LS3 is screaming to its higher RPM's, I have already shifted the Pontiac engine, placing it back into its lovely tire shredding torque range and you are crying in your beer watching my tail lights walk away as you come up with some silly excuse as to the fuel filter must have been clogged or one of the coil packs went bad.
You're assuming I'm talking about using the crappy LS3 heads instead of worked-over cathedral heads that make insane torque curves in big-cubed LS engines. Your comments really show how little you know about LS engines. You sound like all the Harley Davidson guys i used to encounter when i rode a Victory. Having a flat torque curve gives you the illusion of having a lot of torque when you really just lack horsepower. Just because it falls on its face at 5200RPM doesn't mean it has impressive torque. Why only have torque when you can have usable torque come in early and still have 600hp n/a?

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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
Now, that is the factory HP & TQ. BUT, when you go to rebuild the 400CI and you add that stroker kit and bring the short block up to a healthy 461 Cubes, you have now increased both the important TQ and HP numbers. Seeing you may be willing to invest 9K or more to set up the Pontiac with an LS3, imagine what that would be in Pontiac dollars. The LS3 would not even come close. You would now have to step up to the LS376/525 engine which by itself goes for almost $9000 - less all your bolt-ons. Of course you will have to change out transmissions and invest in a high dollar rear end assembly to handle the power. And you are going to tell me the LS3 is the better choice? Yeah, if you have the money to pee away. But seeing in the video you have bare feet, can you afford an LS3 upgrade?
Pretty much everything you just said is incorrect...... blatantly, shamelessly, completely incorrect. As i mentioned earlier, why would i spend crazy money buying a crate engine when i can build a 429 stroker out of a junkyard LS(a complete pull-out with accessories and a computer) for half the price?

A healthy trans and 9" rear are a given at that power level no matter what the power plant is. So that's not part of this debate.

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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
So, no, I am not offended. It is your car and you can do whatever you want, I am good with that. But don't try and blow smoke up my butt or any one else's and tell me the LS3 is better. It is DEFINITELY not cheaper.
While not specifically talking about the LS3, the LS platform is absolutely better, and it is absolutely cheaper if you compare apples to apples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
The Pontiac has the same, if not better, potential if you are after HP & TQ.
Dollar for dollar, not even close

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
The gas mileage argument is a lame point as you don't build a high powered engine to get gas mileage, but no doubt with the EFI and other electronic improvement added to the Pontiac engine, gas mileage can be brought up pretty good as I had a highway geared 1967 GTO, 4-speed, that would get over 20 MPG on the highway at steady cruise back in the day of 55 MPH speed limits. Dependable, just ask geeteeohguy how many miles he has on his cars.
The idea that big-power engines can't or shouldn't be efficient is laughable. Why waste money intentionally?

The EFI conversions are nice and all(I'm using one on a big block chevy), but they still don't have knock control for the crappy head chambers, and the multi-port units cost as much as a whole engine build.

However, the MPG argument is only part of it. How much does a fully-assembled Poncho weigh? I would say at least 100 pounds more than an iron-blocked LS engine, and 200 pounds heavier than an aluminum LS engine.

The LS is also far easier to work on. People love bitching about having to pull a head to change a lifter, but aside from the AFM/DOD junk, that almost never happens. How much does a full roller retrofit cost for a Poncho engine, you ask? About as much as i could buy a complete junkyard 6.0 pull-out.

They don't have as many points of failure. 1) The oil pump is direct-drive, so you don't have to hope your pump drive shaft never breaks. 2) You don't have a distributor gear to worry about wearing out. 3) You have 8 coils. So if 1 fails, it's just a minor annoyance until you can get back home or to a parts store(I've literally never had a coil fail on an LS engine).

The factory machining is good enough not to worry about having to balance the thing to spin 7k. I spun a cam-only LQ4(truck 6.0) to 7400 RPM every day for over a year without having any issues, and it still made enough torque to lock up the converter at 1000rpm and cruise around town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
So again, why bother to invest a dime in a Pontiac build or upgrade when you can invest that same coin into the future LS3 swap. And, why take up members time in receiving engine building help, tips, or other only to say, "well thanks to all, I have decide to go with the LS swap."
Your entire post is riddled with misinformation regarding LS engines. You really don't know what you're talking about. As i stated above, I was looking to see what i could get with bolt-ons, not an engine build.

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So I am NOT offended, but it seems you are.
Nice try. You can pull the switcharoo all you want, but the fact that you started a thread dedicated to this topic and then barged into my thread with the same attitude says enough about how offended you are by LS swaps into old-school Pontiacs. I was genuinely inquiring as to the budget potential of the 350, but you had to be that guy on the internet. Now I remember why i quit using forums.

Having said all of this, I actually don't hate old engines. Look at my signature, and you'll see that. I just don't pretend that they're better than the LS in any way other than nostalgia.

'66 GTO 4-speed
'07 Yukon Denali, headers, tune
'74 K20, 468, SM465, NP205, Holley EFI
'79 Z28, Vortec 350, M20
'90 Suburban 4x4, 4" lift, OD green, future 4BT swap
'99 Formula, 6.0, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc (sold)
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 03:15 PM
 
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Hey dude, you need to take your attitude & LS junk to a Chevy forum, or one that deals with later model cars, which came with LS power.

Most all of us old Pontiac guys think old Pontiac cars should have Pontiac power, NOT LS power.

And it's very unlikely that we will ever change our minds.

If you like LS stuff, great. But you're wasting your time here, & just making online enemies.

I think I can speak for lots of guys here who think it would be much better if you do not post here any more.

And we don't need to hear your parting shot. Just be cool & leave quietly, please.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hey dude, you need to take your attitude & LS junk to a Chevy forum, or one that deals with later model cars, which came with LS power.

Most all of us old Pontiac guys think old Pontiac cars should have Pontiac power, NOT LS power.

And it's very unlikely that we will ever change our minds.

If you like LS stuff, great. But you're wasting your time here, & just making online enemies.

I think I can speak for lots of guys here who think it would be much better if you do not post here any more.

And we don't need to hear your parting shot. Just be cool & leave quietly, please.
Hey, man. I've spoken nothing but facts here. You "old guys" , as you say, are the ones making attacks. I'm simply defending myself and stopping the spread of misinformation.. This is a GTO forum, not a "Pontiac V8" forum. The best performing Pontiacs in history CAME FACTORY with LS engines. So the LS is just as much a Pontiac engine as a 400 or 455. If you won't look at logic and refuse to change your minds, that's not my fault. If you see me post something in the future, just schroll on past. Don't talk shit, and then get offended when someone puts you in your place.

'66 GTO 4-speed
'07 Yukon Denali, headers, tune
'74 K20, 468, SM465, NP205, Holley EFI
'79 Z28, Vortec 350, M20
'90 Suburban 4x4, 4" lift, OD green, future 4BT swap
'99 Formula, 6.0, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc (sold)

Last edited by rumblebox; 05-18-2019 at 04:51 PM.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2019, 08:40 PM
 
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"...This is a GTO forum, not a "Pontiac V8" forum..."


Looks like you posted this in the '64-'74 year model section.

So, exactly which of these year models came with LS power ?

You'd get a better response in a section or forum where most of the guys prefer LS power, & share your opinions. This ain't it.

As for me, I don't care how much power an LS engine can make, how much fuel mileage they can get, or how cheap you can build one. Share your info with someone who cares.
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