What's it worth - non numbers matching OO 1970 Judge - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-26-2010, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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What's it worth - non numbers matching OO 1970 Judge

EDIT: Sorry - probably should have posted this in the Lounge. Please move if required

Looking at a 1970 orbit orange Judge. The owner has provided PHS documentation and it is a true factory orbit orange 4spd RAIII car but has a freshly rebuilt NOM WT block (does have #12 heads though).

Car is unrestored underneath but very solid and appears to have a show quality exterior/interior/engine bay. It also has a 12-bolt rearend which must be non-original as I believe these only came on 455 equipped cars. Was originally a Sandlewood interior car, now black. Unfortunately has drum brakes all around, but they are power-assist.

This is exactly the car I've always wanted (OO Judge, RA, 4-spd) - I would be happy with a Judge tribute car, but thought this might be a nice opportunity to own the real thing. I want either a sandlewood or black interior car, and it would have been nice if this interior was left sandlewood on this car for originality's sake...

Being non-numbers matching of course brings it down from the typical $50-75K asking price I've seen for '70 Judges and I know it's hard to say without seeing it in person, but what would you say a non-numbers matching RAIII Orbit Orange 4-speed Judge be worth? His original asking price was over $40K, and he claims to have paid $45K a year ago and put $15K into it. Not sure I buy all that, but was looking for some thoughts from those that know better than I

Options are as follows:

THE JUDGE
SAFE-T-TRACK
RADIO P/B
CONSOLE
GLASS-S/R-WS
4 SPD TRANS
G70X14 WL FG
STRG-VAR
SPG SHKS-R/H

So it doesn't have many options and doesn't have the original drivetrain, but is it worth anywhere near his high-30's asking price? It was a frame on resto with the underside looking original/driver quality. Everything else looks great in the pics...

Any opinions are greatly appreciated!
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Kevin's Homepage

1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WCT5 5-Speed

Last edited by 85_SS; 07-26-2010 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Wrong section
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-26-2010, 04:15 PM
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Not sure about the value, but looking at the pictures, that's not the original steering wheel or gear shift knob, is it??
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-26-2010, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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I'm not an expert by any means, but the options do list the optional Formula wheel (which it appears to be) and it's hard to see but that looks like a Hurst T-handle (not sure if these came original, but I've seen a number of '70 GTO's with them.

Kevin's Homepage

1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WCT5 5-Speed
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-26-2010, 11:19 PM
 
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Looks like a 77 or so TA steering wheel. Underside looks like a nice redo that has been driven. Nice car. I would say search out 10 cars in your price range and buy the nicest one. If this car is the nicest, then go for it.. Economy is tight, so cars are bargain basement price right now.
Oh, that's in Canada? Well, check for rust and it may be a good deal, have to have a magnet to tell.

Burning rubber since 1982!!
My photobucket, lots of dif car pics.
http://s411.photobucket.com/home/jetstang
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Car is located in IL. I'm pretty sure that's the factory optional "formula" wheel (same as T/A). I've seen several GTO's with them while searching and it's listed in the options on the PHS invoice.

I'm just not overly familiar with the value of a non-numbers matching Judge (really you're paying extra for paperwork at that stage of the game). There's a beautiful low mile numbers matching GTO cloned into an OO Judge on ebay and the guy wants $35K, but it's been up several times and only gets into the mid-20's. People can ask what they want, but it doesn't always mean someone is willing to buy at that price.

I'm just curious if people feel mid-30's is too high, fair, or a steal for this car in particular?

Kevin's Homepage

1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WCT5 5-Speed
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 06:37 PM
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A matching numbers engine would add about 10-15k to the price of the car. The question is, can a comparable car with the right engine sell for mid 50's in this market? If so, your car may be fairly priced. Looks like a nice solid car. Maybe priced a little high. With a real Judge, correctness is critical. If you like it, buy it. If you bought a new car for high 30's, what would it be worth in 5 years? What will this Judge be worth in 5 years? My money is on the Judge, right motor or not.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 06:55 PM
 
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Judges are the rarest of the GTO's so to have I you are interested in is the best case scenario. Orbit Orange is one of the favorite colors, 4-speed definitely.. I see tribute judges listed for 35,000 all the time so a real Judge at $45,000 is what I would be asking. Love the fact it as the Formula wheel option. You know the Old Cars Price Guide says add 125 percent for the Judge option!!!! You can turn it into the 75 grand by finding the correct Block. Good Luck!!!!! LES
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-27-2010, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the opinions guys - I really appreciate it. I really do want to get it, but financing will definitely be tight. Even with a date correct block, the car could never truely be numbers matching again. I doubt I would really care though as I will drive and enjoy the car regardless. Just having a REAL 4-speed OO Judge would be very cool, and will probably never come up again as I assume most people weren't silly enough to toss an orignal Judge drivetrain aside.

I see I missed it in my first post, but yes it does have the factory Formula wheel option listed on the PHS invoice (STRG WHL-FOR). Am I correct in understanding the rear must have been replaced as well? Was it possible to get a 12-bolt with a RAIII car?

As for a new car - never have bought one and never will for that very reason. The wife bought a 2 year old Jetta before we were married for just over $20K... 5 years later it's finally paid off and worth MAYBE $5K. I could never swallow that. This would be the first car I've ever financed, so it's a big step talking myself into it. I would really like to have something now when I'm still young though (31 in week or so) when I can really enjoy it for years to come. As mentioned, you don't ever really lose on these cars in the long run so if I was ever stuck and had to sell, it's not like I'd lose my shirt.

Got my eye on a Judge clone right now as well for considerably less money - only downside for me is it's an automatic.

Kevin's Homepage

1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WCT5 5-Speed

Last edited by 85_SS; 07-27-2010 at 08:49 PM.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-28-2010, 10:56 AM
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If the clone is nicely done, and you like it buy it and turn it into your GTO. If you want a stick, convert it, the parts are out there. Put a Tremec 5 speed in that sucker with the money you saved not buying the incorrect real Judge.

IMO any reasonably priced GTO is a good investment if you can enjoy it.

It's not all about the money.

P.S. LOVE that Monte SS. Very cool.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-28-2010, 12:47 PM
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Agreed, it's not all about the money. But if you can, get the real Judge. You will NEVER regret it, guaranteed. Better to cry once when you buy it rather than every time you drive it. You will always appreciate a good value, and you will never forget a lost opportunity that may be a once-in-a-lifetime deal. Again, if you can, buy the real one!!!
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