Ramair iii upgrade - Pontiac GTO Forum
User Tag List

 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Ramair iii upgrade

Hi guys,

I am new to this forum and this is my second post.

I have 70 GTO ramair iii (NOM) would like to upgrade the hp&tq little bit. Don't want to touch the bottom of the engine and headers. Maybe cam, rockers, valves, carb, intake. What's your parts recommendations and how much gonna increase. My engine is 366hp. Don't want a lot of engine shaking and noise.

Thank you
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	62c27ce0-90c4-4c64-a398-a4e482fd3ad5_1522335293812.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	223.5 KB
ID:	107673  
Aziz2010 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 12:17 PM
Super Moderator
 
BearGFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Springtown, TX
Posts: 5,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Garage
Automatic or manual? What rear gear? Power brakes? Please tell us a little more detail about how you plan to use the car and what your goals are. Some of your description said that you "don't want a lot of engine shaking and noise". It's really hard for us to read your mind about what you would consider "a lot" because that's so subjective. What some of us might find quite pleasant and fun, might be "a lot" to you. For street use, you're not going to find a carb and intake that will work better than the factory QJet and cast iron dual plane manifold, but you can find a lot of them that will be much worse.

Also, are you looking to buy parts and have someone else install them for you, or are you comfortable with doing all your own work?

Cheers..

Bear

BearGFR
Springtown, TEXAS
BearGFR is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Hi
It's manual transmission, power brakes, and 3.55 rear gear.

I use it to have fun in the street.
I mean buy not too shaking engine that i don't want an aggressive camshaft (also need the cam to start at low rpm 1300- 1600). I would like to get 400 or little more horsepower and torque.

Would like to buy the parts and i have a friend of mine who's gonna install them.

Thank you
Aziz2010 is offline  
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 04:56 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
"... i don't want an aggressive camshaft (also need the cam to start at low rpm 1300- 1600). I would like to get 400 or little more horsepower..."

A cam that idles smooth & makes power & torque at 1300 rpm may not make your desired 400hp at higher rpm.

I assume that a small hyd roller would come nearer doing this than anything else. But, for a reasonable price, a flat tappet cam is the only way to go.

The stock cam should have been an 068. So, I'd guess that a Voodoo 262 should increase your hp slightly, while retaining good vac, idle, and low rpm torque. Should definitely wake up the mid range power.

Voodoo Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam - Pontiac V8 262/268 - Lunati Power

I assume you know that a stock compression '70 RA3 engine has too much compression for most of today's pump gas. A Voodoo cam will increase cyl pressure, which might possibly make the situation worse. So, I'd recommend adding some Torco Accelerator octane booster to your pump gas. It's available by the case.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/t...UaAgRGEALw_wcB

My '69 RA3 GTO had the 744 cam, which I liked. But I had 3.90 gears. The Summit 2802 is similar to the 744, but with more lift. It should have more top end hp, but less low end torque than the Voodoo 262. With all the bigger cams you'll need matching valve springs.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...RoCJdgQAvD_BwE

If you have another $1000 to $1500 to spend on a cam set-up, a small HR will definitely wake things up.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3208&gid=289

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3209&gid=289

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2935...tegory:1272239

Last edited by bigD; 03-29-2018 at 05:08 PM.
bigD is online now  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
I appreciate your opinions guys.
I found these parts combination. What do u think?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl51-116-3

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1452-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2112

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7156

For the intake manifold, there is one start at idle-5500 and the other one start at 1500-6500. Which one to choose?

Also i am thinking to put holley 750cfm dp.

Also i am thinking to put bigger valves. Do you agree? And how big do you think?

If this is a right combination, how much is going to increase the hp&tq do u think? And am I missing anything?

Thoughts
Aziz2010 is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 10:36 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
That is an 041 clone cam, like used in the RAIV engines. Many have been disappointed with it's street manners in 400 engines. It's great for a 455, but NOT a 400. Will have a nasty idle, low vac, and very little torque at the 1300rpm level you mentioned.

I would not use 1.65 rocker arms. The pushrod holes must be opened up in your heads. And it just puts extra unnecessary stress on your valve train. Some like the roller tip rockers--some don't. If you go with those, I'd get the 1.52 ratio, and buy poly-lock nuts. Those rockers come only with the Chevy type crimp nuts. I'd also replace your stock bottleneck rocker arm studs with 7/16" BBC style studs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-16-Rocker...!US!-1&vxp=mtr

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...20582/10002/-1

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...RoCJUcQAvD_BwE

That DR timing set is one of the cheapest available & is not a true roller. The stock type sets, with link belt type chains are plenty good. I used the TRW brand in most of my street & race engines. Never had a problem.

Cloyes is one of the cheapest brands of this type set.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...c3007k/2625477

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloyes-Gear...m4383.l4275.c1

Cliff Ruggles has posted that he uses the Melling brand set.

https://www.amazon.com/Melling-3-350.../dp/B000C4KH3O

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi....c100677.m4598

But, some insist on a true roller set, with lots of keyways, for cam degreeing. Summit sells a cheaper model, or you can buy one of the higher priced brands.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...w/make/pontiac

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1234...-and-sets.html

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...w/make/pontiac

The Stock Q-jet intake is all you need. If your Q-jet does not work correctly, you can have it rebuilt, or buy a rebuilt one. You can use the money you were gonna spend on the alum intake, & apply it to the Q-jet. SMI is a well respected Q-jet rebuilder. They can do yours or sell you a later model 800cfm version, with the desirable APT adjustment feature, plus an elec choke, if you want one.

https://www.smicarburetor.com/produc...D2/9/sfID3/100

Last edited by bigD; 03-30-2018 at 11:21 AM.
bigD is online now  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 11:07 AM
 
1968gto421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Travelers Rest, South Carolina
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigD View Post
The Stock Q-jet intake is all you need. If your Q-jet does not work correctly, you can have it rebuilt, or buy a rebuilt one. You can use the money you were gonna spend on the alum intake, & apply it to the Q-jet. SMI is a well respected Q-jet rebuilder. They can do yours or sell you a later model 800cfm version, with the desirable APT adjustment feature.

https://www.smicarburetor.com/produc...D2/9/sfID3/100
I agree with bigD on this. My Q-jet was a goner so I got one from Sean Murphy at SMI. A Terrific carb, feels like I added dual quads to the old girl! Pontiac engineers did a lot of work on their Q-jet manifolds to make them perform really well. Many folks feel a Q-jet is the next best thing to fuel injection. The trick is to have a good core (or have SMI furnish one) and some one knowledgeable do the rebuild on it, like Sean Murphy or Cliff Ruggles ( https://cliffshighperformance.com/ ). The reason Q-jets have a bad reputation with many guys as someone unqualified/unskilled tried to rebuild it and screwed it up good. I have used Holleys since the early '70's and they are excellent carbs but you have to buy the good ones (not the bargain ones, like Avengers) to get one that won't give you headaches. This is a GOOD one: ( https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...s/parts/SS-750 ).

Best of luck, keep asking questions here. Pontiac engines are not Chevy's and are different to work on and get to run properly.For an idea on this, read this: What are they selling us these days? - PY Online Forums
Keep us posted, thanks.
1968gto421 is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
THank you very much guys
I appreciate your help
Aziz2010 is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 08:04 PM
 
PontiacJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gastonia, NC - Born & raised in Connecticut - 31 years
Posts: 3,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Garage
Here is my take on it and my recommendations. I don't see an easy way to add-on horsepower to get you in the 400 or over range for a number of reasons - in my honest opinion. Might be better off going with 3.90 gearing and take the hit on gas mileage and highway driving to increase your acceleration.

Assuming you are sticking with the factory compression and using racing gas or additives for higher octane.

You want to take into consideration that your engine short block is factory, cast pistons & cast rods. So no need to assemble parts that should be kept below the factory 5,100 RPM. Limit. Yep, you can spin it more, but you are always taking a chance of spinning a rod bearing at some point unless you know the condition of the rod bearings and have the better rod bolts like ARP's - or simply go to a set of aftermarket forged rods. (The Ram Air IV was factory rated at 5,500 RPM's with the same factory cast rods, but had lighter pistons and it easily spun 6,000 RPM's with its matching valve train).

Keep the factory Q-jet intake and carb as there is no need to go with an intake rated at higher RPM's when the factory pieces will do exactly what you want. Get the Q-jet rebuilt as mentioned and increase the primary jetting size to .074.

Not having headers will hurt breathing, so again, you don't want to build for higher RPM's if the engine can't breathe.

Heads:

Get them hot tanked, magnafluxed for cracks, surfaced to get them flat (not milled down to raise compression), install new heater hose nipple & freeze plugs.

Install 7/16" Big Block ARP rocker arm studs to replace the factory "bottleneck" studs. You will need a set of poly locks to match as you want to "zero lash" the lifters when the time comes.

Install new bronze valve guides, but some like to go with the steel liners - depends on your machinists recommendations.

Some will recommend installing hardened valve seats on the exhaust side. I am of the opinion I don't need them when using Stainless Steel valves and good valve margins - but that is my opinion.

Install new valves. I like stainless steel valves and used the Ferrea brand valves. NOTE: Pontiac used 4 different stem lengths. I used the longer RA IV valves on my build which allows for a higher lift cam. You must use a matched set of springs for the valves as well as cam selected AND you will want to measure for the correct length pushrods (and I would get thicker walls on these) when using the taller valves. You can buy them from several sources, but here is a quick example: https://butlerperformance.com/c-1400...ce-valves.html I supplied the valves to my machinist and then let him purchase the correct springs/retainers based on required spring heights and the cam lift I am using. I used a double spring versus a single and had Viton valve seals installed.

I did my own intake runner porting, blending, & bowl work, but not really necessary for a street engine. It is an expense you can save on unless you want to have it done.

What you do want, and will increase HP, is to get a 3 angle valve job ala Pontiac 3-angle valve job and not a Chevy 3-angle valve job. The H-O Pontiac blueprint guidebook says 15-30-45 blend for the intake and 30-45-60 blend for the exhaust.

Camshaft selection is almost endless. Each of us will have a recommendation and brand. Since you already have a high compression ratio, I would stick with a cam having a 114 Lobe Separation Angle. Tighter LSA's have a tendency to build additional cylinder pressure and not something you really want with your factory compression. If me, I would simply step up to the "744" cam which is just a little more than the "068" cam you should presently have and then use the 1.65 Roller Rocker arms to give you a better .447" lift.

Now I don't think you should have a problem with using the 1.65 ratio rockers. The pushrod cup is moved closer to the rocker arm stud and what this does is move the pushrod in closer to the head. The pushrod goes through a hole in the head and when using higher lift cams, the pushrod can be jammed up against the hole and bend it - which leads to a big problem. The RA heads took this into account and the holes were elongated. Very easy thing to do with your heads off. The top of the holes are tapered wider at the top and narrowed down at the bottom. By "bottom" I mean about 1" down.

The cost to rebuild the heads is not inexpensive. I had my 7K3 heads rebuilt, less the roller rockers, for $1,100. If you really want to do them up, you might consider sending them out which would give you more potential in the future if you build your short block and go with something like a stroker kit. SD Performance- Pontiac Performance Specialists

Can you go cheaper? Sure. Do nothing with the heads and just add the bigger cam/lifters, and roller rockers as this is also an option at this point as well.

Once you get the engine squared away, the next thing to dial in will be your distributor timing/curve - which has been covered at length here on the forums if you do a search.

More options to think about.
tiretread likes this.
PontiacJim is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 09:48 PM
Super Moderator
 
BearGFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Springtown, TX
Posts: 5,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Garage
Something you really should understand as lots of folks have been trying to explain. Pontiacs are not like chevys. You can't take the "chinese menu" approach with them and just throw a pile of random parts at them and expect to get the results you want. They're very good, very strong engines that make all of their torque 'down low', so unlike the problems chevy boys have worrying about changes that kill all their bottom end, the limiting factor with one of these is traction - as in there's not any
Trust us, for the type of engine result you say you want, there is no intake manifold that will perform as well as the factory intake, let alone better. Replace it and you'll have spent good money just so you can wind up with a slower car, but I guess it will "look" good... Same deal with the carburetor. You mentioned going with a 750 Holley. Did you know that the QJet you have right now is already 750 cfm? Some QJets are over 800. They get a bad rap because people don't understand how to work on them. Holley's have a grand total of three modes of operation for metering fuel: idle, main jets , and power valve. QJets have idle, main jets, a graduated main jet enrichment system, separate metering rods for the secondaries that are also graduated, plus the secondary air valve that adjusts air flow based on what the engine is demanding. The biggest problem with a QJet will ususally have been caused by the last "trick of the month club" dude that messed with it and didn't know what he was doing. I'm running an 800 CFM Qjet on my 69 GTO, and it's an honest 11-second car that makes over 500hp.
If your engine really is an RA III, then it already has the largest valves that Pontiac ever used in a 400 (2.11 intakes, 1.77 exhausts) and the heads have screw-in rocker studs. Larger valves won't fit in those heads without significant modifications to the combustion chambers, and unless you're willing to go with more cam than we hear you saying that you want, you wouldn't be able to 'use' them anyway and that'd just be another instance of spending good money for no result.

There's no such thing as a free lunch with engines. Despite what a lot of folks like to believe, the factory engineers weren't idiots. They designed engines that did what you're asking for: provide a really good compromise between making power, being durable, and having 'genteel' street manners. All those things are related. If you start making changes to bump up the power, then one or both of those other areas are going to 'take a hit' to some degree. There aren't any magic formulas. What a cam change actually does, the way it makes more power, is it moves the engine's torque peak to a higher rpm by making the point where it's most efficient (peak volumetric efficiency) happen at that higher rpm. It makes the same torque as before, but the peak just occurs later. See, HP can't be measured. It's a calculated number. The formula is (torque X RPM) / 5250. Make the same torque at a higher rpm and viola - now you're making more HP. But there's a cost to that too. The farther away from peak VE you are, the less efficient the engine is. This is why 'big' cams hurt low end power - the engine is now less efficient at lower RPM. This is what causes all that "shaking" that people associated with a hot cam shaft. What's really happening is the engine is so inefficient at that RPM that its stumbling and puking all over itself just trying to keep running. It's a trade off that has to be made if the goal is to make more power with a cam change.

Bear

BearGFR
Springtown, TEXAS
BearGFR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Pontiac GTO Forum > The 1964-1974 Pontiac Tempest, Lemans & GTO > 1964-1974 Tempest, LeMans & GTO Engine Tuning and High Performance

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Pontiac GTO Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAMAIR Mainfolds mbspeed 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO Complete Engine Compartment Discussion 6 05-23-2014 05:27 AM
Ramair 3 install 65gto 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO Complete Engine Compartment Discussion 5 03-16-2014 11:16 AM
HEI to Pertronix Ignitor III and Flamethrower III toxic 1964-1974 Tempest, LeMans & GTO Technical and Electrical Wiring 14 11-20-2011 11:49 AM
Converting My 1968 & 1970 RamAir III to run on E85 Turbo 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO Undercarriage, Frame, Transmission and Differential Discussions. 1 04-18-2006 09:22 PM
RamAir for 05 mumrah Service, Maintenance and Technical Discussion 19 06-01-2005 11:58 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome