LS Swap to Early GTO - MY OPINION - Page 25 - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #241 of 245 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 09:51 AM
 
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Im with GeeTee, 53 years old and in the old 8mm films when i was 2 years old (67') i always remembered seeing moms 64 Lemans and dads new 66' GTO that i was brought home from the hospital in. Just the styling drew me in, the car looked like it was going 100 mph sitting still and i could imagine what that scary front end looked like to a chevelle, GSX, Mopar, Ford...etc. as it closed the gap fast and passed him. I ended up having 7 firebirds growing up from 69' thru 76' all had a pontiac power plant. There is a reason they came up with the GRRRRRRR! marketing. Even my wife can tell a pontiac motor from 3 blocks away. When you step on the go pedal the note is distinctive.

The GTO was always my Unicorn, i missed out on one before buying the 69' bird as my first car against mom and dads wishes of getting something sensible. My argument was, you had them when i was young. As a kid you dream of all the things you will do to them when you get some money... but we did what we could to just keep them running. I put the restoration of an early Pontiac on my bucket list in my mind and i would do it just as i dreamed as a broke 17 year old. it would have pontiac power and subtle mods that retained the Pontiac style and purpose.

Flash forward 27 years and i run into the Tempest on line just trolling, not planning to get into a car resto, but just the sight of the front end staring at me re-ignited my love for these mechanical works of art. i purchased the car sight unseen for a good price without telling my wife and had it trucked 1200 miles just for the good foundation and unmolested factory body that had been sitting in a car port since 76'. The trucking gave me time to break it to my better half...not a fun drive....lol. But she was aware of my love for them since we had our first date in the 69' and she put up with all the birds and a fun 71' Nova mustang GT eater until we had
children.

Original plan was to do GTO clone but as i got into it the nearly pristine driver trim and budget dictated it stay a Tempest which i had no problem with. when it came to motor i had accumulated 3 good blocks to work with. two 455's and a virgin 400. the first running 455 went in after resto and ended up eatting its main bearings after 1200 miles for an undetermined reason. Second try i went all out with forged Eagle stroker kit to 462 assembled by a reputable speed shop who's owners wife had a 69' bird in polar white just like mine. That sealed the deal in a world where the mention of a pontiac usually left a puzzled look on a mechanic. Dyno put the new motor at 470 hp and 508 Tq with a flat tq curve from 2500 - 5200 redline. Every drive puts a smile on my face like that 17 year old. with recent additions of RA 2" manifolds and an old offy dual quad setup with RA pan and dual 600 demons this thing is as scary as the look of the front end, and i LOVE it. Even with the 2:56 rear end it shreds street tires at a stop or roll with just as easy mash of the pedal and when it grips it hunches down and pulls like a freight train up until it scares you off the gas due to hydroplaning. in my eyes and experience, its all about torque, HP sells motors, Tq wins races and no motor out there makes more torque out of the box than the revolutionary old pontiac design. No one made a block that covered their whole engine line-up in one casting. and like jim said you could take a page out of Royal Pontiacs Playbook and scrub an extra 50 HP out of the motors with out breaking in to them, perfect for us shade tree mechanics.

This is my opinion, "its JUST a Tempest", but it still has the pontiac heritage and that means a pontiac block in my mind. And any car that wants to test the 326 may find a tiger hiding under the hood not a SBC!
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post #242 of 245 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 11:51 AM
 
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I guess I have to admit, I'm not a purist. Link to the build thread below:
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post #243 of 245 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 02:47 PM
 
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All I can say is, "I like putting a standard wrench to my nuts". Lol
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post #244 of 245 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by 11th Indian View Post
“A real American drives American iron, not a confused multi-cross constructed GM "corporate" engine that isn't sure if its Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, or GMC, but doesn't want to offend or hurt the feelings of the others as being brand specific. Used to be a time when a Pontiac engine was engineered by Pontiac, Buick engines were engineered by Buick, Oldsmobile engines were engineered by Olds, and Chevy engines were engineered by Chevrolet - those were the days of real American cars and not this one size fits all brands because we don't want to upset anyone or make then choose a specific brand and offend others who don't.”

Please elaborate on those statements. Pontiac – a division of General Motors employed Americans to design and build their engines just that same as every other division of General Motors. Decades later the LS engines were still designed by General Motors employees, though they may have not been specially affiliated with a particular GM division. I don’t see that making them any less American

Borrring response. Now you are going to play the Strawman argument.

A real American is one born of the Baby Boomer generation where life was well defined: ethics, morals, values, courtesy, and an understanding of "right" and "wrong" was the national backbone that was adhered to rather than not.

Each car company was a separate division and brand that ran itself. They competed against each other, trying to out do the other in style and/or engine options. Until the mid-1970s, most General Motors brands designed and manufactured their own engines with few interchangeable parts between brands. In the mid-1960s, there were 8 distinct and separate families of GM V8 engines on sale in the USA.

In the early 1980's, GM consolidated its powertrain engineering efforts into the GM Powertrain Division so as to standardize its engines so that engines/engine parts were interchangeable between brands thus minimize production costs and increasing profits. Later, GM expanded into ownership of other European makes bringing their foreign engine technology into the fold, provided engineering assistance as needed to their GM global subsidiaries around the world, and GM worked out engineering sharing agreements with other car manufacturers. But the biggest factor in such an engineering consolidation was the cost of certifying so many different engines for tightening worldwide emissions regulations which threatened to become very costly.

So, was the LS engine reeeally designed by American employees, or were ideas and other technologies gathered from foreign sources? Keep in mind the 2004-2006 GTO is not even American, its from Australia. So how in heck can you even compare an American built 1964-1974 GTO with an American built engine to an Australian built 2004-2006 Flop just because it uses a GM engine? See below the partial list of foreign engines used in GM cars. Kinda the same, except reversed.

GM was a parent company, an umbrella to not only cars, but many other divisions as well. They had/have aircraft engines, automotive engines, big truck diesel engines, etc.. And lets not forget all the foreign engines stuffed into GM brands like the Isuzu G161 SOHC straight-4 used in the Chevrolet Chevette, the Toyota A engine Inline 4 used in the Geo Prizm, the Toyota DOHC Inline 4 used in the Pontiac Vibe, the Opel "ECOTec" DOHC straight-4 used in the present Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, and the list goes on.

So with your LS thinking, because it is from GM, and it was wedged into an Australian badge car called a GTO, that the LS or LT engine is an acceptable use in a once formally powered Pontiac brand car with its own separately engineered engine having no interchangeable parts with any Chevy engine of the day, small or big block??

If this is your thinking, which in my opinion certainly is, then I suppose any GM produced engine, whether it be gas or diesel, car, truck, or train, would be an acceptable substitute for any Pontiac powered Pontiac because is was manufactured by, or affiliated with, the GM Powertrain Division. It'll be a sad day when I see an Opel engine under the hood of a GTO because some Millennium or Generation X light bulb genius offers up an argument that it was manufactured by a General Motors employee and it doesn't matter what contry they were from.

A real American car is a car brand that is autonomous and not a corporate concoction melded together from a mixing pot of various global auto manufacturers and/or engineering agreements designed to create a generic powerplant so as to minimize cost and maximize profits, and....... to meet global emission regulations. A real American car can be quickly identified BECAUSE it lacks most all emissions BS and did not give a damn what global countries thought of them.

A real American is one who drove a real American car and didn't give a damn what global countries thought of them, my generation, the Baby Boomers.
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post #245 of 245 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 10:10 PM
 
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A real American is one born of the Baby Boomer generation where life was well defined: ethics, morals, values, courtesy, and an understanding of "right" and "wrong" was the national backbone that was adhered to rather than not.

I guess my parents and grandparents that fought in WWI, and WWII were not real Americans? Or my brother that was wounded in Desert Strorm, thanks for enlightening me.

Each car company was a separate division and brand that ran itself. They competed against each other, trying to out do the other in style and/or engine options. Until the mid-1970s, most General Motors brands designed and manufactured their own engines with few interchangeable parts between brands. In the mid-1960s, there were 8 distinct and separate families of GM V8 engines on sale in the USA.

So?? What’s you point? They were all General Motors employees and everything they did, everything they created and every penny their respective divisions earned went to where????

In the early 1980's, GM consolidated its powertrain engineering efforts into the GM Powertrain Division so as to standardize its engines so that engines/engine parts were interchangeable between brands thus minimize production costs and increasing profits. Later, GM expanded into ownership of other European makes bringing their foreign engine technology into the fold, provided engineering assistance as needed to their GM global subsidiaries around the world, and GM worked out engineering sharing agreements with other car manufacturers. But the biggest factor in such an engineering consolidation was the cost of certifying so many different engines for tightening worldwide emissions regulations which threatened to become very costly.

GM made medium to poor quality cars (depending on the day of the week) that were no better than their peers built in America, and went unchallenged until the late 70s and early 80s. Once foreign competition started to influence the domestic auto industry the party was over.


So, was the LS engine reeeally designed by American employees, or were ideas and other technologies gathered from foreign sources? Keep in mind the 2004-2006 GTO is not even American, its from Australia. So how in heck can you even compare an American built 1964-1974 GTO with an American built engine to an Australian built 2004-2006 Flop just because it uses a GM engine? See below the partial list of foreign engines used in GM cars. Kinda the same, except reversed.

The LT series of engines from the late 80s and the first LS1 built in 1997 were General Motors creations, that powered multiple vehicles with much success. They put out more power and consumed less fuel per cubic inch while doing it, didn’t need to be rebuilt every few years and were embraced by the aftermarket and new car customers.

GM was a parent company, an umbrella to not only cars, but many other divisions as well. They had/have aircraft engines, automotive engines, big truck diesel engines, etc.. And lets not forget all the foreign engines stuffed into GM brands like the Isuzu G161 SOHC straight-4 used in the Chevrolet Chevette, the Toyota A engine Inline 4 used in the Geo Prizm, the Toyota DOHC Inline 4 used in the Pontiac Vibe, the Opel "ECOTec" DOHC straight-4 used in the present Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, and the list goes on.

So with your LS thinking, because it is from GM, and it was wedged into an Australian badge car called a GTO, that the LS or LT engine is an acceptable use in a once formally powered Pontiac brand car with its own separately engineered engine having no interchangeable parts with any Chevy engine of the day, small or big block??


I don’t know what your drinking or smoking , but I sure would like some!!!! I have no idea what your even babbling on about, I never said anything about putting an LS in a Pontiac, I was asking how your determined what a real American drives?? Funny, I never really considered basing not just what car you drive but what engine is in it as a criteria for determining if you’re a real American.

If this is your thinking, which in my opinion certainly is, then I suppose any GM produced engine, whether it be gas or diesel, car, truck, or train, would be an acceptable substitute for any Pontiac powered Pontiac because is was manufactured by, or affiliated with, the GM Powertrain Division. It'll be a sad day when I see an Opel engine under the hood of a GTO because some Millennium or Generation X light bulb genius offers up an argument that it was manufactured by a General Motors employee and it doesn't matter what contry they were from.

I guess what it comes down to Jim is reading comprehension. Maybe you need to reread my question, no where do I touch on an engine transplant, or suggest its my preference to put an LS engine in an early model Pontiac, but I can assume that because I also have a 2014 Corvette Stingray, powered by an new generation LT engine, I am not a real American… Hmmmm. But If I put a Pontiac engine in that car, would that make me more patriotic?

A real American car is a car brand that is autonomous and not a corporate concoction melded together from a mixing pot of various global auto manufacturers and/or engineering agreements designed to create a generic powerplant so as to minimize cost and maximize profits, and....... to meet global emission regulations. A real American car can be quickly identified BECAUSE it lacks most all emissions BS and did not give a damn what global countries thought of them.

I am sure I not the first person to point out that its been decades since the auto industry worked that way. Nostalgia is nice, and I like driving a car built before the days of gender neutral bathrooms, but nostalgia doesn’t sell new cars in quantity.

I just installed a Tremec 5 speed in my numbers matching 72 GTO....... Now i dont know what I am? Damm, i may be a freaking commie!!!
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  Pontiac GTO Forum > The 1964-1974 Pontiac Tempest, Lemans & GTO > 1964-1974 Tempest, Lemans & GTO Complete Engine Compartment Discussion

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