2005 GTO - looks thread - split thread - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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2005 GTO - looks thread - split thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1COOLPC
The reason this car failed is not because it's bad but because Americans have horrible taste in cars. The lack of sales of the GTO is an insult to American car buyers, not the car. The Monaro, same exact freaking car, is very sought after automobile in Australia.
---We do not live in Australia! Heck ... even their toilets flush backwards ... don't they? I'm not bashing the car ... as much as I am the idea that "what works there ... MUST work here".


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1COOLPC
The only thing people have to say about is they don't like the looks of it, that's fine. But that's all they say and most of those have never driven one because they would quit caring about how it looks. (snip) Big deal if somebody doesn't like the looks, that's just an opinion and matters absolutely ZERO.
---I think they are too small, as well! As for the looks ... it's not that it's ugly ... it's that there are so many options (other vehicles) available on the market. Now, when you talk about ugly ... I refer you to the Aztec. Apparently ... LOOKS *do* matter! Would it matter if the Aztec had a 350HP V-8? Opinions are just that ... opinions ... but the public won't buy wing-tips if they want loafers ... even if they serve the same purpose ... but just look different.
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 02:27 PM
 
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Haha good point about the azteck. Doesn't the baja come to mind as well? But yeah, even though, these are all our opinions, styling does make a huge diffrence. I know what 1COOLPC is refering to about the "nostrils" on trans-ams and those are plain heinous. The new GTO isn't suposed to be a muscle car like that, and I like that. As long as the hood scoops arn't massive wind tunnels like those offered on trans-ams and all the like, I think they will generally go over well. In the monaro, the scoops are not of large dimension and are almost subtle inuendos of the engine that lays below. Also, doesn't the ls1 have issues with over heating? The hood scoops should eliminate some of that (even if it is upgraded to the ls2, if the scoops are functional it couldn't hurt it) But yeah, Im sticking by my suggestion of offering things like the hoodscoops as individual components (like the upgrade gear ratio on the c5 vettes or the nav) or could be all packaged together as an option, once again like a vette's 1sb option.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
--- ... even their toilets flush backwards ... don't they?
This is 100% not true. If that is the basis for not liking products from there, and it is an urban legend, does that mean you now like the GTO?

http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm

Last edited by 1COOLPC; 07-28-2004 at 06:17 PM.
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-29-2004, 02:07 PM
 
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Cool,

I take issue with your debate style and ask that we keep the discussion to the car. Insulting an entire country, especially the country that most of the readers that read this forum are citizens of, is not something that will make your points stronger, your debate more resolute or your conclusions anymore believable - the only thing they degrade is you.

Now - onto the car.

Styling does matter. It matters a lot - espeically in the country where 80%+ of your expected sales are to come from. The GTO looks like a Grand Am - Honda Accord combo. It's a bland looking car and its looks have almost nothing to do with its heritage. Style doesn't only matter, it's paramount in any product people buy for pleasure. Where style matters less is where value is based on functionality.

You can't market the new GTO as a Performance vehicle and abandon styling; the only way you can do that is if the price is insanely low or the performance is outrageous. The Dodge SRT-4 is a good example of the aforementioned extreme - bad styling with good performance, but it's only 19K. The GTO is stuck somewhere in the middle. It's not an extremely well performing GT and it's not that cheap.

People can spend a little more and get better styling and a lot better performance (Corvette), or they can spend the same and get similar performance and good styling (350Z, S2000) or spend a lot less and still get a performance bargain and sacrifice styling (Evo, WRX).

The GTO may be a good car, but it's pricing, marketing and target audience are all screwed up. There are better choices everywhere you look.

I will give the interior of the car a lot of praise, especially the dash panels and gagues. Too bad most people don't see them because they can't get past this bland picture.

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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-29-2004, 02:28 PM
 
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Take issue all you want but America's not perfect, it would be foolish to believe it is and if you think our country has a track record of producing perfect cars then you're fooling yourself. For Pete's sake, the inferior Mustang outsold the F-Body 5 to 1 and the F-Bodies were always superior cars. I'm not insulting this country entirely, I love it, but you can't say we have good taste, as a whole on a lot of things. Have you turned on a TV set lately? This car didn't sell because it wasn't tacky. Pure and simple. Had it been a tacky scoop beladen vehicle then they would have moved a lot more of them. That does offend me. And I'm sick of hearing feedback on this car from people who have looked at pictures of them and no more. OK, some people don't like the way it looks. GOT IT! Do they have anything more to offer or just that opinion?

And they didn't abandon the styling on the GTO. It's absolutely gorgeous and civilized looking. On par with any handsome vehicle Europe has to offer.

There are better choices? Please give me JUST ONE? Name one RWD coupe with a manual transmission, powerful V8 engine for less than $50,000 that has build quality and solidity of structure? You can't, it has no peer right now. I would love to hear you give me a single alternative that fits the GTO's shoes and doesn't cost a butt load more money.

This car has two flaws, it's a Pontiac and it's called the GTO. It never stood a chance with the kind of car fans of these two entities desire. Stick a couple of those giant Firebird booger-holes on the hood and it probably would have sold better. That's a pity to me.

The failure of this car is because of one of three reasons; the car itself, the people selling it or the people who are not buying it. I own a GTO, I know what kind of car it is and it's the absolute one part of that triangle I know isn't a failure.

EDIT: I am hoping the 2005 Mustang GT and Cobra will be a quality, well built and pleasant to drive vehicle that will give the GTO some competition. The current car is not even close, my father is a Mustang nut and they are world's apart in final product. I really hope Ford gets it together for the new Mustang. Mustang fans deserve it after 20+ years on the same structure.

And I don't want to come off as being harsh, it just hurts me to see GM bring an excellent car to the market and have it fail. This is one of the finest vehicles I've ever owned and it isn't even being given a chance and I think it's for the wrong reasons. I don't like what it says about my country's car buying public when a car this good doesn't sell. It is sad to me. But hey, I got mine, I love it and the fewer sold is really better for me down the road.

Last edited by 1COOLPC; 07-29-2004 at 03:05 PM.
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-29-2004, 03:10 PM
 
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You're making my argument more than you know.

Saying it has no peer has little relevance when you so narrowly define the requirements. If you're trying to draw a comaprisson to the M3 then I'm confused - because you're build quality requirement is null & void then.

It's a decent drag car, but it is too heavy with its sub par styling. The car is hurt in its overall appeal. And it's not a good track car - with sub par skid pad, slalom and road course times. It looses the stlying, handling and performance comapre to the 350Z, M3 and S2000 (combo of 0-60, 1/4 mile, track, slalom, skid pad; and it's not as fast in a straight line as the Cobra.)

I agree there would be a better reception of the car were it to not have the Pontiac or GTO name. I still think the car LOOKS like an Accord-Grand Am Mix, and I'm not alone in that opinion. That is a problem for the car. Now that's not saying I believe the car should be riced out, have ground effects all over it, scoops and a big whale tail on the back -- ick!

A more aggressive style that matches it intended audience however, would be make the car more appealing. And so would a $5-8K drop in the price tag. Given it's performance vs styling, that's the price range I see the car doing well -- similar how it did what it did with the original GTO.

Putting the LS2 engine in the 2005 version and taking it to 395hp (rumor) will only frustrate the current problem IMO -- that assumes a price increase will come with it. Now if GM/Pontiac are willing to bump the hp to 395 with the LS2 engine and not raise the price, well that would create something called value, which the GTO needs.

The current formula isn't working...and to blame the general public for that is somewhat narrow minded don't you think?
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-29-2004, 04:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BishopTx
You're making my argument more than you know.

Saying it has no peer has little relevance when you so narrowly define the requirements. If you're trying to draw a comaprisson to the M3 then I'm confused - because you're build quality requirement is null & void then.
I don't think wanting a V8 RWD manually shifted coupe should be such a hard order to fill. To me this is a basic need for a good GT coupe. It's not crazy and it shouldn't be unusual. A lot of people like V8's and it's one of the three most common engine arrangements sold today. The GTO should not be the only everyday car with this drivetrain, but it is. Well the Mustang too. My M3 comparison is with looks. BMW makes handsome coupes, the GTO is a handsome coupe.

Quote:
It's a decent drag car, but it is too heavy with its sub par styling. The car is hurt in its overall appeal. And it's not a good track car - with sub par skid pad, slalom and road course times. It looses the stlying, handling and performance comapre to the 350Z, M3 and S2000 (combo of 0-60, 1/4 mile, track, slalom, skid pad; and it's not as fast in a straight line as the Cobra.)
But it's a better overall car than any of those because for those who want a V8 engine the only competition it has is the Cobra and one day in that car and you will be crying for some build quality. I mean face it, an all aluminum, high output, tough sounding V8 motor is far cooler than any Japanese V6 engine will ever hope to be. You can feel it when you drive it. I considered the G35 coupe when I purchased my GTO and if the Infinity came with adrenalin injections I might have considered. The G35 and 350Z are a couple of the best cars made today as long as you can live with a complete lack of excitement when driving. They don't even sound good when you get on it. The GTO build quality and structural integrity is as good or better than any of those cars you mentioned and that's probably due to the fact that it's not an American car. (Don't get down on me for dissing American cars either because I notice you don't mention a lot of them either.)

Quote:
I agree there would be a better reception of the car were it to not have the Pontiac or GTO name. I still think the car LOOKS like an Accord-Grand Am Mix, and I'm not alone in that opinion. That is a problem for the car. Now that's not saying I believe the car should be riced out, have ground effects all over it, scoops and a big whale tail on the back -- ick!
You can say any car looks like any other car but they are realistically so far apart in styling that you would never, even on the last day you had sight from a deteriorating eye disease, mistake the two. I think it looks more like a BMW coupe than any of those myself. It's a very handsome and understated design. Period. It is a tasteful car for people who appreciate a fine and simple line that isn't overly complex just for the sake of it. And most experts that I've read do agree that it's an attractive design. It's just how I like cars to be and I'll tell you something else, I had a 1998 C5 in 1997 when NOBODY had a C5 on the road yet. Far, far more people come up to talk with me on my GTO than ever did with my C5. All positive. It is the warmest reception I've had from any car I've owned. People love to talk about it and are very interested in it. This caught me totally by surprise. Some don't like it, sure. But a lot of people do like it when they see it. I do give credit for a lot of this with the car being yellow, I'm sure silver or black would not have the same experience.

Quote:
A more aggressive style that matches it intended audience however, would be make the car more appealing. And so would a $5-8K drop in the price tag. Given it's performance vs styling, that's the price range I see the car doing well -- similar how it did what it did with the original GTO.
That's why this car shouldn't be called the GTO. Everybody wants a price drop. I don't, it's priced great and I wouldn't want to give up $8,000 worth of goodness in this excellent car. You want a cheap car then buy one but don't wish a great car was lessened just so it doesn't cost as much. If anything I would like to see a sunroof, navigation and a few other things with a $2000 price gain to cover it. Some people just want something for nothing, great cars like this aren't cheap. (By the way, it's obvious that you haven't spent any real time with the GTO because you clearly don't understand what kind of car it is. I don't mean this as an insult but you would be singing a different tune if you could spend a week with one.)

Quote:
Putting the LS2 engine in the 2005 version and taking it to 395hp (rumor) will only frustrate the current problem IMO -- that assumes a price increase will come with it. Now if GM/Pontiac are willing to bump the hp to 395 with the LS2 engine and not raise the price, well that would create something called value, which the GTO needs.
Supposedly the price is going up only minutely but time will tell. We will need to wait and see what the situation is with pricing on the 2005 model. But I'm not the type of person to expect improvements with no added cost. If a car gets better then it should cost more. Like I keep saying, this car has no peer in it's price range, I can't think of a car this good that costs less than $50,000 off the top of my head. Lots of little engine cars seat four people but they don't feel or drive like this one.

Quote:
The current formula isn't working...and to blame the general public for that is somewhat narrow minded don't you think?
Not at all, they are an important part of the car buying circle. When quality products don't sell who do you blame? Marketing? The dealer network? The customer? They all share in the responsibility. A knowledgeable car buyer with this type of car in mind should have the GTO on a very short list of cars to drive. As I stated earlier, this is a quality car and worth every penny they ask and then some, it is the one element of the whole circle I am absolutely certain is not to blame. I don't blame just the public, the stupid dealers with their $10,000 mark ups totally hold some of the responsibility. Pontiac for creating its image has some of the burden. But the car itself is an excellent one and I've owned a lot of excellent cars. I do know what I'm talking about, I don't believe the naysayers do and are judging only on the few cars they looked at the outside of and have some perceived notion that it's a Pontiac and it has some GTO name on it even though this car is nothing like a GTO. (It's better in every regard.)
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-30-2004, 04:07 PM
 
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Cool,

So you make some good points...

For me and the folks I am around with similar interests in cars, especially performance cars, the new GTO just does not appeal. And we're a fairly educated group and have tried to learn about the car in a non-biased manner.

And you're right, I have not spent a lot of time with the car, although I did test drive one, and I didn't come away overly impressed. It performed okay, but I never could get passed its looks -- its honda accord grand prix esque looks.

And as a professional marketer for a fortune 50 company, and I can't help but think that the marketing director for the GTO should be fired -- he's obviously not done his homework. When people hear GTO they think really good performance for not a lot of money - that's the legacy. For what you get from the GTO, coupled with its bland styling, that price point is too much. The car doesn't match the name, the brand or the price point.

And I'm really not meaning to insult anyone who does like the car, or their tastes. My point is on a macro level. My point is that GM messed this one up.

Last edited by BishopTx; 07-30-2004 at 04:11 PM.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-30-2004, 06:03 PM
 
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[QUOTE= My point is on a macro level. My point is that GM messed this one up.[/QUOTE]





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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-30-2004, 07:23 PM
 
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Everything I say about the car is under the assumption that it's a world class vehicle and I really can't care less for anything beyond that. I am sitting in the informed and experienced opinion that this is one of the best cars I've ever spent time with and you will find most, if not all, other GTO owners will agree. This is an educated conclusion I've come to from spending time with the car. Again, I keep reiterating that this car's failure is not the car's fault but other aspects in the car purchasing circle. I'll never believe otherwise because I know how excellent a car this truly is. I much prefer it over cars I've owned like a late model Audi A8, a C5 Corvette and others simply because it brings all the good things of those cars into one package. No other car does so many things as well in this type of package at this price segment. I can't think of a single one with the passion of this car.

And, it is a phenominally handsome car. The lines are exquisite and I honestly can't fathom a person coming to another conclusion on the looks. We are worlds apart on what we think makes a good looking vehicle.

How anybody can get excited over a small displacment, low torque japanese engine is beyond me. Good cars, yes. Passionate car? No chance in hell.

Basically the GTO failed because of every possible aspect beyond the actual car itself. It's not the first time in marketing history this has happend. Beta was superior to VHS for one example.

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Last edited by 1COOLPC; 07-30-2004 at 07:40 PM.
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