461 won't rev up - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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461 won't rev up

So here's my problem, I can't get my motor over 5000rpms on the street....history is it's a 2014 Butler 461 built, broke in and dynoed by them at 472hp @ 5500rpm, it never got installed just sat wrapped up then I bought it last year and installed it this spring, specs are...9.75 comp, Butler grind cam 282/288,230/236, .510/.521 114LS, ported polished iron heads, MSD, ready to run dist.(no box)Holley 110 gph pump. I put my Edelbrock Performer RPM and Holley Street Avenger 770 vac secd, and my 8mm Taylor wires on it from my other motor a 455 that developed a rod knock. I have the original tank pickup, new 5/16 braided fuel line, in line Edelbrock 40mm screen filter removed the stone filters from the carb, new Accel can coil and a wire from the battery to a relay so there's over 14 volts to the coil now thanks to Pontiac Bobs post, I purchased a new harness not knowing about the resister wire, you think NPD and American Autowire could put in there description NOT FOR ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTORS after four coils and calls to MSD,Butler, new battery, ground wire Bob had the answer and I thought for sure that was my rpm problem but I only got 500 more rpms more. Set the limiter twice once at 5800 then 6000, revs past 5000 in neutral but not under load and feels like something is breaking down at 5000 no surge or bucking just feels like a rev limiter, also put the rear float over the half way mark that's what Jim Butler suggested but have another call into them to say it didn't work. Sorry for being long winded just want to get everything out there, so any help would be great before all my hair is gone,thanks,Randy
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post #2 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-29-2019, 09:47 PM
 
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"...new 5/16 braided fuel line..."

Is that 5/16 number a mistake ? I think most factory line was 3/8. Most recommend 1/2" line, for high performance engines.

What's your max total advance(with the vac advance unhooked & vac source plugged), & at what rpm is that max achieved ? Most(not all) Pontiac engines seem to like somewhere between 30 & 36 advance, all in by 3000 rpm. Obviously, if your max timing advance is much less than 30, it'll reduce power. If it's much higher than 36, detonation becomes more likely.

A timing light should show whether your ignition system is firing all cylinders, at the correct time, up to 5000 rpm & beyond. Cranked my 455 a couple of day ago. It had a fairly loud "pop" every so often. Hooked my timing light up to several different plug wires. Would get steady fire, for a few seconds, then would miss a couple of beats. So, I have to track down my problem. I suspect the rotor. This is the most common HEI problem I've had, thru the years. A new rotor usually fixed the problem, for a while. The rotors would appear to have carbon tracks, all around where the rotor button(bushing) in the cap contacts the metal tang of the rotor.

I'm not an HEI expert. I always used points in all my bracket cars, back in the old days. So, I hope I can get this HEI fixed. If not, I'll consider either trying a different HEI, or switching to something else, maybe even points, or a points dist with Pertronix Ignitor 3 points replacement.

Last edited by bigD; 08-29-2019 at 10:31 PM.
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post #3 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
 
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It's a 6AN which I think is 5/16th id that's the size Butler used from the pump to the carb so I thought it would be ok for up to 500hp but maybe not, I would need to change the pickup to 3/8 if I'm changing the line to 3/8 right? And there's no vacuum advance, Butler said they don't like using them, I'm at 14 degrees initial and about 34 degrees at 2500 that's what Butler set up. I wonder if an electric pump in back would help, had to put one on my 67 years ago to feed the mechanical with a 428 tri power. Just trying to determine if it's electrical or fuel, kind of hard to rig the fuel pressure gauge so I can see it driving.
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post #4 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 06:33 AM
 
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-6an is 3/8in
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2006 GTO M6

Motor - Stock with Vararam
Bunch of suspension
Bunch of brakes
Stock tune

365/368 std
12.81 @ 110.6 2.03 60'
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post #5 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
 
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Looked up my purchase it was 6AN which is 5/16 ID 17/32 OD according to TT Racing's description.
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post #6 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thinking of raising the float levels beyond the recommended level to see if I get some more rpms, maybe that would determine if I'm running out of gas, just an idea.
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post #7 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 08:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baaad65 View Post
Looked up my purchase it was 6AN which is 5/16 ID 17/32 OD according to TT Racing's description.
The closest fuel line to -6an is 3/8 in. Try to stick a -6an fuel line on a 5/16 barb and see what happens. Most stock cars in the late 60’s and 70’s have a 3/8in feed line and a 5/16in return. I wouldnt put a 300hp small block on a 5/16in line let alone a 461 stroker. If you have a -6an line that is equivalent to you using a 3/8in factory feed line. -6an will support up to 650hp n/a.

2006 GTO M6

Motor - Stock with Vararam
Bunch of suspension
Bunch of brakes
Stock tune

365/368 std
12.81 @ 110.6 2.03 60'
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post #8 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
 
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Well that's good to know because I thought I screwed up and would have to replace the line and worse the pickup, maybe I need an electric pusher pump like I said my 67 428 tripower needed that then was fine, or the pickup sock could be clogged because it looks like the tank has never been out and the car was in a field for a while I'm sure by all the crap I've been finding in every place imaginable. That's if my problem is fuel not electrical, still unsure.
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post #9 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 10:04 AM
 
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Not sure if your issue is fuel related or ignition related but i will say ive had some recent issues with the Holley 110 gph mechanical fuel pump... with multiple failing within days of being installed. The build quality has really gone down hill. I would suggest if you dont already have a fuel pressure gauge put one inline going to your carb setup... then see when you experience the issue at 5000rpm if it corresponds to a drop in fuel pressure. If pressure is solid at 6-7psi then you can rule out fuel as the issue. I would also check vacuum and see where thats at. If its normal only thing left it can be is ignition.

2006 GTO M6

Motor - Stock with Vararam
Bunch of suspension
Bunch of brakes
Stock tune

365/368 std
12.81 @ 110.6 2.03 60'
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post #10 of 57 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
 
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Ya the pump sat on the motor for 4years and I did have to pull it apart to index the fuel port but have a gauge on the dual feed and I'm getting 4 -5 at idle but a little difficult to see the gauge going down the road. Vacuum gauge in the car reads 16-17 at idle, new Accel super stock coil but maybe that's breaking down? And like I described I have a couple wires crossing through the distributor cap to reach but idk think that would be a problem always not at high rpms. Also new cap, just feels like a rev limiter but don't know how to deactivate it unless I unplug the tach then I have no reading in the car unless I go by sound and feel which I could probably feel if it's pulling past 5000.
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