1970 Judge RAIV Value? - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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1970 Judge RAIV Value?

I am trying to buy a 1970 GTO Judge RA IV that has been sitting outside in a driveway in my neighborhood for a long time. It is wearing its original paint and still has its original black interior in very good condition. Car has it's original 4spd, console and buckets, dash is cracked. Engine has NO stampings on the front of the block AT ALL. Still has it's RAIV 614 heads, and aftermarket intake and carb. Owner has had it since the 70's and still has the RA Aircleaner and exhaust manifolds and a lot of other small things that came off of the car over the years, but not the intake and carb. Body is pretty solid with great floors but will need a decklid, door corner and quarter patches. Has slotted 70's mags. Will start and run.

I need a real good idea of what it is worth to proceed. Any help?
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 11:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by karguy View Post
I am trying to buy a 1970 GTO Judge RA IV that has been sitting outside in a driveway in my neighborhood for a long time. It is wearing its original paint and still has its original black interior in very good condition. Car has it's original 4spd, console and buckets, dash is cracked. Engine has NO stampings on the front of the block AT ALL. Still has it's RAIV 614 heads, and aftermarket intake and carb. Owner has had it since the 70's and still has the RA Aircleaner and exhaust manifolds and a lot of other small things that came off of the car over the years, but not the intake and carb. Body is pretty solid with great floors but will need a decklid, door corner and quarter patches. Has slotted 70's mags. Will start and run.

I need a real good idea of what it is worth to proceed. Any help?
About $30K to start if the engine is original and trans/rear are also number matching. Restored, these can bring in over 100K, although the market is dropping. Expect to invest a lot of $$ to get it to the higher restored price.

However, the fact that the engine has no stampings is suspect. First you need to confirm that the engine is original, not just the heads. Could be a service replacement engine. Check the casting dates/engine block part number.

Next, I would confirm that it is indeed a Judge and a RA IV car and not simply a set of decals and a set of heads added years earlier to depict a RAIV car. You can get the factory documents from Pontiac Historical Services and have them fax them to you so you don't have to wait for the post man.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
 
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The engine block is not original from what I can tell. He seems adamant that the block is an over the counter RA V service block, but there is no way legitimately tell without taking it apart. Next step, is as you say to get the block numbers and see what they say, but I am fairly certain that it is not the original block. Casting numbers and dates will give clues if it is a RA V block, but not conclusive, but I am not adding any value there because I can not confirm without a tear down of the engine I am certain it is a real RA IV. Everything else checks out and is correct including the exhaust manifolds, trans, rear axle and other parts and he has had the car since it was a year old with just a few thousand miles on it. I am ordering the PHS. So basically I am wanting to know the value, RA IV, as-is without its original engine.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 11:42 AM
 
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The engine block is not original from what I can tell. He seems adamant that the block is an over the counter RA V service block, but there is no way legitimately tell without taking it apart. Next step, is as you say to get the block numbers and see what they say, but I am fairly certain that it is not the original block. Casting numbers and dates will give clues if it is a RA V block, but not conclusive, but I am not adding any value there because I can not confirm without a tear down of the engine I am certain it is a real RA IV. Everything else checks out and is correct including the exhaust manifolds, trans, rear axle and other parts and he has had the car since it was a year old with just a few thousand miles on it. I am ordering the PHS. So basically I am wanting to know the value, RA IV, as-is without its original engine.

The claim of a RAV block in the car by its owner is going to want to keep the price up. If it is, that won't take any value away from the car and may actually increase the value given the owner knows its history and has had it since practically new. He knows the value of the car. He's not going to sell you a running car for cheap.

Is the car being sold less the engine? That's how you would price it as a 1970 Judge without its original RAIV engine and then figure the added value of that engine. Restoration people/collectors would snap that car up just because it is a RAIV car, regardless of the engine, and then search out a correct date engine to fill the bay. The prices at auction for a restored RAIV 4-speed Judge seem to range from $80,00 to over $100,000. If someone bought it for 30K, put 40-50K back into it, there is still a margin to profit at auction, but the guy having it restored is probably not looking to restore it just to sell it, so the restoration cost will not matter so much.

Offer the guy 20K and see if he puts the cover back over the car and advertises it for an open market sale, considers your offer, or tells you what he will take. You won't know until you throw an offer at him or get him to disclose the price range he is considering to let it go. If he doesn't need to sell it, he's going to go high.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 12:22 PM
 
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Being a RAIV car...there is no AC box in the way, I'd look carefully at the block casting number on the block flange coming up from the oil filter housing. If the block casting number comes up 9792968 (& its not a 428) or 481708... & it was down to money changing hands with a RAV block being something that was in question, it would be nice to pull the distributor & look & see if the distributor hole is over size like a 455SD. RAV blocks had the oversize distributor hole. Have had several friends with RAV installed engines. Most, just had the factory RAV heads &'intake. Very few guys have gone to the trouble to remachine the distributor hole. BTW, a '70 RAIV distrib is a "2011", only stamped one day, & very hard to find, def worth checking, if getting that far.

Since you indicated no codes or numbers on the block face, will list the folowing 400 casting numbers...
You did look for SR block number stamped furtherdown the pass side block face???

Block casting numbers:
-'70 400 (base 400 & RAIII: 9799914.
(note, a very few late production '70 WS & YZ engines received 9799915 cast blocks.)
-'70 400 RAIV block: 979991(5).
(note: the first 6 digits of an original 9799915 block are cast, the last digit, the 4 was ground off at the engine plant & a specific font 5 was deeply stamped.)

the different casting numbers on '70 400 blocks was for engine plant internal reason to differentiate the 4 bolt main 400 block's bores being machined for slightly looser wall clearance for the RAIV's forged pistons. '70 RAIII blocks, were also factory 4 bolt main fitted blocks with premium Morraine 400 bearings, but used cast pistons.

SR 400 4bolt main blocks cast in July of '70 up into '73, the 481988 casting number was totally wiped off, & 9799915 was stamped in its place. Again specific size & font stamps were used, & there are those in the know that have no problem exposing forgers.

Have personally examined a complete '69 RAV 400 shortblock, but not a '70 RAV fitted block. The latter supposedly has a block casting number of 481708. Would love to have a picture of that block casting number if that's what's in it.

VALUE...looking at the few pics, the paint is burnt off fairly well down to surface rust, & there is rust repairs to perform in major body panels, if it was here, full 1/4s would be replaced with perfect originals, & car would receive a very detailed frameoff. I seriously doubt anyone is going to try & patch the repairs, then repaint, then try & represent as they blended lacquer in the trouble spots. There has been a trend to such silliness. Many times the result is nothing but deception & many collectors have wised up.

Having witnessed what similar condition RAIV Judges bring as projects, 30-50K, is what I'd think that is the ballpark that this one would be in. It going to come down to what parts are missing & if the owner will get off the car. When the body condition on RAIV Judges is extremely nice, & low mile original engine still exists, they bring much much more. This is something that is hard to register with many such owners. They also have no idea the lengths & expense many of us go to restore such cars. It isn't take it down to the corner body shop & have them "restore" it.

Atoll blue is the most common color on a '70 GTO, but it one of the most desirable colors on a '70 RAIV Judge. For several years in the late '80's, I tried to buy an Atoll blue 4 spd RAIV Judge that was in my old home city. Offered very strong money for it, for the time. It had been one of my best friends older brothers from '78-80, & was traded back to the previous owner who then owned it for another 25 years til he died. That particular '70 RAIV Judge has had an SR fitted block & one SR 614 head, since the early 70's, with documentation from the original dealer of the repair. Car was bid on eBay to the mid 40's about 7-8 years ago, then sold off eBay for more. While typical condition driver restored RAIII Judges have taken a beating in the marketplace over the last 2 years, much of that comes as a result from the absolute stupid runup in prices in Value Guides due to the crazy bidding on nearly a dozen '69 RAIII Judges @ Barrett Jackson nearly 3 years ago. Nearly every one of those '69's sold for stupid money, nowhere near real world pricing, & after Value Guides pricing went though the roof, prices fell. Extremely low mile original & cutting edge Concours restored RAIV Judges, typically, are price outliers, & Value Guide pricing, means very little.

Intereting to see what happens with this '70.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Great info guys. Thank for the great detail. I'm going to take a run at it and see what shakes out. It's a delicate dance dealing with someone that has a deep attachment but is willing to sell. I think the way things are looking I would be lucky to get him to agree to $30k. He claims he has about $12,000 in NOS parts he has collected over the years, (such as an NOS hood tach) but I have not been able to see these mysterious parts yet. I was not able to get the casting numbers and date codes from the block, but that is the next step. I am out of town for the holidays but will post an update in late November.

As for the RAV block, he supposedly grenaded the original and wanted something stronger and this is what all of the people in the know told him to get at the time because he said it was better reinforced. From what I understand the RAV blocks did have added reinforcement and not that many people are aware of that. He said when he got the block it was expensive, like about a grand. So far about 80% of what he has told me checked out, but there have been a few "errors" that could be just the fog of the 80's setting in and not any intent to deceive. Either way, it is a cool car and needs to not spend any more time sitting outside under a tarp.

Can anyone post an "SR" stamping so I can see what it looks like and where it would be?

Also... PHS only accepts snail mail and fax machine submissions? No email???

Last edited by karguy; 11-19-2016 at 09:36 PM.
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:39 AM
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If PHS says it's a real RA IV car - just from what I can see in the photos. I'd be all over that car unless it's just crazy expensive. If it turns out to be a V block, then it's conceivable that "the right person" would find it even more valuable than an original IV block but the number of people in that particular marketplace will be a lot smaller than those who care about 100% originality.

Main question though, is why do you want it primarily? As an investment for eventual sale, or for yourself? If an investment, then of course you have to make sure you buy it "right" but if you plan to keep it forever, then the only opinion with regard to value that matters is yours. If it were me, for that car, especially if that really is a RA-V block, I'd be tempted to pay "whatever he wants" just to get it because it'd be a one of a kind, once in a lifetime car.

YMMV of course

Oh, and BTW - if there really are no stampings at all on the front of the block that adds weight to his assertion of what it is. PH probably knows more about these things than I do but my understanding is that those front pad stampings mostly indicated the body style, transmission type, "HP level", build sequence, etc for the car that the engine was built for so it would make sense for a block bought over the parts counter wouldn't have any of those stampings. I'm also thinking that an SR-stamped block would have been one that was replaced under warranty at a dealership or through other 'factory authorized' channels and also might not apply to a 'parts counter' engine.

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