'68 GTO resto... Mad Max meets Pro-Tour - Page 7 - Pontiac GTO Forum
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post #61 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-12-2018, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
 
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A quick note, before tearing it apart again, the fork was definitely aft. So much so that even if I was able to throw it further to release the clutch it would have struck the bell housing window.

One thing that comes to mind too is how much the fingers flexed when I installed andbolted down the clutch to the flywheel. Something is amiss... I replaced the friction plate and the throwout bearing and even though I believe I replaced them with new parts of what I believed I had originally installed I couldn’t be certain. The old friction plate had no markings on it but when doing a one to one quick comparison before installing, they looked to be the same... it’s so frustrating and disheartening. I was meticulous with the fear something like this would happen. If it worked before with what I believe to be that same, just new, parts then it should work now. I know it has to be something silly like a damn loose bolt or a rock or something stupid is lodged in the clutch assembly. Or maybe I installed the friction plate in backwards even though it was clearly marked “flywheel side” or the throwout bearing could be the wrong length because I remember the face being the same as the old one, I just never did a side by side comparison of that part...
I’m just glad this thing has a Muncie in it because it’s light as a feather, relatively speaking, and i can get it in and out in less than an hour without much effort. I’d hate to have to remove and reinstall an automatic by myself
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post #62 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-21-2018, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim View Post
Looks like the diaphragm fingers on the pressure plate are flat? You may need the "long" style throw out bearing. There are three different length. There are also different facings, some are somewhat rounded (bearing on the left) while others are flat faced (bearing on the right). If you use the wrong length or wrong facing, either can give you trouble. Still check to make sure no small block was used under the diaphragm fingers/pressure plate housing. Not all do this, but a few do. If it was and you missed it, they could have fallen in somewhere.

With the fork on the throw out bearing, the fork should just about touch the front of the bell housing window. If it sits about middle or towards the back, wrong throw out bearing length.
I tore into it last night finally and have concluded it's in the geometry. I certainly need a taller throwout bearing. I've poked around and will some more but you mentioned three different length bearings? who sells them? I found an adjustable one from McLeod that is a bit pricey at $67. Also, the pivot stud may need changing to an adjustable one but I'm going to start with the throwout bearing. There is a lot of movement along the transmission shaft with this throwout bearing and by the time it makes contact the fork only has about 1/4" of room before it makes contact with the bellhousing opening but in that movement I can feel that there is movement in the clutch. Once I figure out where to get a taller bearing I should be back in business... Even though I did a side by side comparison of my new fork to my old there muse have been a subtle difference. My old fork had a slight wear spot on it and would explain why sometimes it felt as though the clutch was lightly grabbing with the pedal pushed down.

Other news... I tested the electrical and I found a short in only one circuit, the brake/courtesy lamp fuse popped so I need to troubleshoot that one, also my drivers side tail light assembly does everything it should but the passenger looks a pit off, bad ground or crossed wire, My right turn signal sends power to the hazard light circuit, dash lights aren't working but I took a 50/50 chance on a wire there and looks like I was wrong. They had two options for the dash circuit card connection, stock gauges or stock lights... I have both. I don't know, that's a head scratcher. I think they need to relabel those choices when setting up that connector. Otherwise everything else works!! I even bumped the starter and turned it over a few times to keep things lubed, fuel pump, fans, ignition module and water pump all work correctly. I can't fully test the fans unless I take the thermocouple and drop it in hot water or something. And for the first time in over 20 years the original horns work! Lol! It's the little victories.

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

I installed my new carb and started to figure out my fuel lines. The drop base air filter is causing major interference with the stock throttle cable and bracket so I replaced them with a Lockheart set and am really happy with it.

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
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post #63 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-21-2018, 07:10 PM
 
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If the clutch fork is almost hitting the rear of the opening, then the bearing is indeed too short. Fork should be almost hitting the front when correctly installed.

Take out your old throw out bearing for reference and bring it with you to match up bore diameter and where the clutch fork rides (might bring the clutch fork as well).

This is the "long" throw out bearing for a diaphragm style pressure plate (3-finger pressure plate uses a flat faced throw out bearing), and should measure just under 2" depending on what store you use:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BRGN1086SA

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...4037/5052335-P

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...k=219741&jsn=3

You may or may not need the adjustable pivot ball, but it can be used to "fine tune" the throw out bearing/fork. Make sure the pivot ball fits well in the matching "dimple" on the clutch fork. As I recall, the aftermarket generic clutch fork had a smaller than stock dimple and I had to re-shape my pivot ball to get it to fit into the dimple - this should be a sign that you have the generic clutch fork which is not correct and should get the correct Pontiac clutch fork. You should also not be able to go past the throw out collar with the fork arms, if you can, again, aftermarket fork which means it can slip past the throw out bearing and bind.

"I found a short in only one circuit, the brake/courtesy lamp fuse popped so I need to troubleshoot that one,"

PJ: This has come up a couple times. Seems it will turn out to be the courtesy lamp, check the wiring to it and the lamp socket itself.



I enclosed a photo for comparison between long & short throw out bearings. Not the exact one you want, but you can clearly see the comparison. There is an intermediate size as well, but not as common, so it should be the long you need.
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post #64 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-29-2018, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
 
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Though my symptoms were a little different than others, if not more extreme, I was with out a doubt another victum of the infamous too short of a throwout bearing... I went with the adjustable McLeod throwout bearing (16505 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-16505 ). It has three .15" spacers that you can remove to get the height you need and after looking at the price of other "tall" throwout bearings I figured this was not terribly priced and that company had a pretty good reputation in quality. I had to remove one of the three spacers and after removing and reinstalling the trans a few times everything is as it should be!! I'm really pumped and cant thank you enough Jim for helping me out with this issue.

Now I'm one fuel fitting and a power steering hose away from engine break in. I finished up the steel braided fuel lines, again, relocated the electric fuel pump and wired it up. I'll be doing a fuel system test once the fitting comes and the next cool dry day I will do the break in. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't extremely nervous about grenading the engine but I think everything will be good. I'll gather some pictures of the fuel line setup and be sure to get a good clip of her running once I get there. It won't be long until the snow flakes start falling here in central NY and I am so happy I've gotten to this point before I have to stuff her in her shoe box for the winter. I still have a lot to do before I can get her on the road and figuring out the wheel and tire sizes is the next big hurdle. With the front end being around 3" lower than it used to be, my current 225/60 R15's up front with 4"BS are rubbing somewhere under load and in a tight turn, I heard it when i pushed her into the road and turned her around by hand. I need to see where and how they are rubbing to understand if I can still go bigger like I originally wanted to by changing the B.S. on the wheels or not and/or rolling the lip but I have plenty of time to answer those questions... My original plan is to stuff 26"x10" R15's with 4" B.S. up front and 26"x12" R15's with 6" of B.S. in the rear but I need to cycle my new suspension and see how things will fit while under extreme loading and in tight turns. so I'll be lifting up individual wheels and taking measurements. Looking at the current stance, I should have no problem with that setup in the rear as I've heard of others putting slightly larger in the rear without needing tubs, it's the front that will likely cause the most interference so we'll see.
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post #65 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-29-2018, 06:39 PM
 
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Great, glad the throw out bearing was indeed the fix. I don't know why, but it seems with regards to Pontiac's that these clutch kits have the short throw out bearing when you need a longer one. I've been caught myself by the same problem and nothing like sitting in the car with the trans in place & driveshaft hooked up, you fire up the engine, and the clutch does not release. Arrghh! Now you have to pull it all apart and do it all over again. Learned my lesson on that one and now I know where the clutch fork should ride with regards to the bell housing hole it sticks through with just the trans held in place by 1 bolt. If not correct, easy enough to stop right there and correct the problem.

I don't know how long your engine has been setting, but if it has a flat tappet cam, I would pull the intake and valley cover and slop some break-in cam lube on it to protect it from a dry start. Then with the valve covers removed, I'd prime the oil pump and make sure I got oil to the rockers. Prime the pump and once oil is seen at the rockers, rotate the engine/crank 90 degrees by hand and repeat. Do this for a full 360 rotation to make sure everything gets oiled and no dry spots are left. Oil can be "squished" out of the bearings over time and if started up dry, could do damage before a sufficient supply of oil gets to them.

If roller lifters, then I would prime the oil pump and do the 360 rotation. I might also squirt just a light single squirt of oil up at the top wall on the cam side so the oil will run down and follow around on the top ring. I would use something like Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder as MMM is a very light oil just to put a little oil on the rings/cylinder walls just before firing up. Might do this just before doing the above priming procedure and take advantage of rotating the engine to put a little oil on the cylinder walls. It may smoke at first as the oil burns off, but should quit very quickly. Then put about 100 miles on it, and do a fresh oil/filter change.

This is my opinion on this and what I would do if I had an engine that sat for a time and was going to re-fire it up. So check around as there may be other ways or better ways to ensure you don't do any damage to the engine if it has been sitting for some time.
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post #66 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Jim. It hasn't been that long at all since I installed the intake and valley pan. I waited till the last min because I knew there was going to be a sufficient amount of time before I got to this point. I've been rotating the engine by hand every couple days also. I've done this once before and one thing I didn't do the last time was your priming method. I primed the oil system but didn't rotate the engine the way you described. It seems so simple and obvious (face palm)....

It's funny. I used to refurbish Black Hawks from the ground up, where my specialty was the flight control system, and that was far less intimidating to me than this. This is the second engine build I've done and as meticulous as I've been and applying the lessons learned from the first time, there is still that feeling of, damn I hope I didn't forget anything... Remembering that the reason this is my second engine build is because a metric bolt was used to secure the timing gear to the cam and the damage that caused warranted a complete engine rebuild from the block out. The fear of something like that happening again lingers regardless of how careful I was.

Thank you again for all of your advice on my journey to get where I am.

I just picked up the parts for my custom steering hose, two ends (5/8 SAE inverted double flare and metric bubble flare w/ o-ring) and a length of black nylon braided hose. I'm going to lay them out to determine fit and required hose length then take it back to my hydraulic shop for them to cut and terminate. I'm really excited to feel this new steering setup as I've heard a lot of good things about the Grand Cherokee swap. The custom hose cost me around $80 for those interested. I used a local place (Syracuse, NY) called Omni Services. These guys are really friendly and always excited to help out with a custom project or race car applications.
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post #67 of 111 (permalink) Old 08-30-2018, 05:51 PM
 
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Very cool on the Black Hawks. I used to work for Kaman Aerospace in Connecticut and do assembly work on the Kaman SH-2 Seasprite used by the Navy, then got moved to the B1B bomber section which was all new at the time, and then to the Navy's A6 Intruder area. Was there 2 years assembling & riveting sub assemblies. The SH-2 shell was assembled as a completed unit then shipped to Hartford, CT, where final assembly & flight testing took place before the Navy accepted them. My understanding is that they have since moved to Florida, but not sure if they still do the work. Really enjoyed that job. Kaman was also known for its guitars and country singer Glen Campbell was best known using one.

It doesn't take much to over-think and keep going through your mind what you did and then what you may have forgotten. I still get that way. Always makes me anxious before firing up any engine - fingers crossed. I hate those "aw, sh*t!" moments followed by "I knew it!" and shaking my head in disgust. LOL

I plan on doing the same thing with the hoses on my Jeep box. You can get adapters to make the metric fittings on the box work with an SAE hose, but like you, I have a local hydraulic hose/fitting shop that can custom make one, so it seems a better choice to me to go that way.
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post #68 of 111 (permalink) Old 09-04-2018, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
 
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SHE LIVES AGAIN!!! Below is a really short clip of the first moments of her running. Let me know if it doesn't work. I shut her down almost right away because I had no oil pressure on my gauge but that turned out to be an electrical glitch and I ended up using a multi-meter on the pressure sensor during the break in to make sure there was pressure, though that method wouldn't exactly tell me the value other than there was pressure.

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

I found a couple more electrical bugs but the fans work, fuel system is good to go and all is well. Break in process went well. I wasn't able to monitor water temp because that's one of the bugs i discovered but the fans cycled on and off several times which tells me they were doing their job and on a 90 deg day with 60-70% humidity I am shocked i didn't overheat but the air coming off the radiator never felt terribly hot after the fans kicked on. Not it's time to get a video of her actually idling now that she's broken in, change the oil, reinstall the inner valve springs and start tracking down the couple minor electrical gremlins. I swear i had tears in my eyes. I remember it being extremely loud with those little Flowmaster Delta series mufflers but when she lit off I thought she was coming apart. Not the case. She fired right up on the first crank and sounded amazing. I haven't messed with the carb yet other than setting the float levels and the timing started outwith 13 deg advance on the crank and another 23 degrees with the bushing I used in the distributor, giving me around 36 degrees of advance and she liked it right off the bat. Once I change the oil and install the springs I'll be able to fine tune the carb and timing but initially everything went great!!

This one was right in the middle of the break in process....

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Last edited by curtis.smith68; 09-04-2018 at 09:43 AM.
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post #69 of 111 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
 
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I don't know what I was doing when I recorded this so I apologize if you get vertigo from this video lol....

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

This sound is brought to you by...

1969 Pontiac 400 block bored +0.040"
Speed pro flat top pistons
Scat aluminum H-beam rods
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy XE274H Hydraulic Flat Tapped Cam CCA-51-224-4
JP Perforance Pro Billet Timing Set JPP-5614
Stock crank (stroker kit will be in the future...)
Edelbrock Performer RPM 72cc heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake gasket matched to heads
Quick Fuel 750cfm SS series carb with annular boosters QF-750-SS-AN
Hooker headers
3" stainless exhaust dumped down right after mufflers
Flowmaster Super 10 series mufflers
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post #70 of 111 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 06:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis.smith68 View Post
I don't know what I was doing when I recorded this so I apologize if you get vertigo from this video lol....

[IMG]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

This sound is brought to you by...

1969 Pontiac 400 block bored +0.040"
Speed pro flat top pistons
Scat aluminum H-beam rods
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy XE274H Hydraulic Flat Tapped Cam CCA-51-224-4
JP Perforance Pro Billet Timing Set JPP-5614
Stock crank (stroker kit will be in the future...)
Edelbrock Performer RPM 72cc heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake gasket matched to heads
Quick Fuel 750cfm SS series carb with annular boosters QF-750-SS-AN
Hooker headers
3" stainless exhaust dumped down right after mufflers
Flowmaster Super 10 series mufflers
I hope you are in error with "Scat aluminum H-beam rods" and meant forged H-beam rods.
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