[PontiacJim]

The frame looks rough. Looks like someone has already cut out and replaced the right side (passenger) inner boxed rail. Very rough cut/weld and it was not fitted to the center body mount very well. Probably rotted away previously.

I would have your frame guy sandblast the frame and you take a look at it in its raw state before he does any repairs or paint. Sandblasting may blow some holes in any weak spots and you may want to see it before going any further.

You may want to also take a few diagonal measurements at this point to ensure the frame is not bent or sprung.

$600 does not sound crazy. But, if the builder finds any problems, the price will go up quickly.

 

[tonyskala]

Pontiac Jim- I was hoping you would chime in. So I thought the exact same thing on the repairs on the frame. But he had a frame from a 65 Chevelle and when we compare the two the both looked like that. I thought it looked like sloppy welding but he said it did not appear to have been repaired.

The frame is getting sand blasted on Monday. He has been good about letting me know on the repairs because he knows what I am after.

The real issue surface today when the bushings were being pressed out of the rear differential housing. One of the ears snapped. I was really upset about it. So I started about trying to find someone to weld it, and trying to find a replacement for it hoping one will pan out to be more cost effective. So I am now trying to find this differential for the car. But when I scrapped off the dirt off it has a cast code of 9779822 but the cast date is c35. This means march 3 1965. So this can not be original to the car.

Does anyone know what 1964 GTO 4bbl with a 2 speed auto came with. I can not seem to find it in the book I have.

 

[tonyskala]

 

[PontiacJim]

OK, interesting on the frame, just would not have guessed that it was factory - kinda amateur looking in fit and finish.

Bushings can be hard to remove, but as old and hardened as they can get, pressing them out may not be the solution. It would have been wiser to use a torch and burn it out, or at least melt it a bit to loosen before pressing.

The 1964 rear end is unique in that it uses the 1 year only smaller bushing and had a shorter upper control arm. I cannot confirm, but the upper control arms may have been designed with an eccentric so they are adjustable (this would change the pinion angle). I supplied a couple pics from the web. These are Chevelle, but it was noted that they were used for other GM A-body cars.

The Pontiac 8.2 10 bolt gray iron cast center housing should have casting #9773369 . However, I found this on Ebay, 1963 cast rear end dated September (I) which makes it a 1964 rear end. It has casting #9773722 . https://www.ebay.com/i/264269389124?chn=ps

If you find a rear end, the 1964 Chevelle also uses the same smaller bushing. The Chevelle forum says Autozone sells the Duralast brand #FB295 bushings, they're $5.99 and they're the right bushings. The FB295 is the front lower control arm bushing for a 73 Camaro with a 1.375 OD.

The PHS documents for your car should tell you the factory rear axle ratio? My info says the W/AC & auto - standard ratio is 3.08. Optional 3.23, and 3.36 optional with the "77" engine only. Without AC on either manual or auto - 3.23 standard ratio on 78 & 79 engine, 3.55 standard ratio on 76 & 77 engine. Other ratios would be optional (3.08, 3.36, 3.90) to include dealer installed ratio's - 4:11, 4:30, 4:33.

:thumbsup:

 

[tonyskala]

So I can find the ratio on my PHS as 3.23. but I can not find in the AMA specifications the cast code on that housing. What I did find is that there are three different castings for the 64. I did not know about the bushing. I will make sure to note that when I buy new bushings.

So on the 1964 as best as I can see there are 3 different housings

9773369
9773722
9779822

I saw that posting on eBay earlier today. His cast code is 1963. I can't tell if it is an I or an L though. I discounted it because the cast was off because I was not sure about it. But now I am not so sure. I have to get this book from my father in law that has more info in it and I am hoping it indicates what the differences are. I am also hoping to run into this guy in San Ramon at this coffee shop tomorrow. He is a regular there and he used to work at the Fremont factory in the 60's and 70's. he has been pretty good about how that factory worked and how they did things.

Thanks for the info you provided.

I got a quote of 480 dollars for a guy to come out and weld the ear back on. I almost fell out of my chair. If it was the correct rear end I might have done it. Although I was reading on the Lincoln welding site welding cast is difficult but not impossible. But they are pretty clear that it really should be used for cracks and attaching two pieces of cast together is not recommended. They also recommend preheating the cast to 600 degree before welding. They have special rods for cast that I did not know existed.

 

[PontiacJim]

So I can find the ratio on my PHS as 3.23. but I can not find in the AMA specifications the cast code on that housing. What I did find is that there are three different castings for the 64. I did not know about the bushing. I will make sure to note that when I buy new bushings.

So on the 1964 as best as I can see there are 3 different housings

9773369
9773722
9779822

I saw that posting on eBay earlier today. His cast code is 1963. I can't tell if it is an I or an L though. I discounted it because the cast was off because I was not sure about it. But now I am not so sure. I have to get this book from my father in law that has more info in it and I am hoping it indicates what the differences are. I am also hoping to run into this guy in San Ramon at this coffee shop tomorrow. He is a regular there and he used to work at the Fremont factory in the 60's and 70's. he has been pretty good about how that factory worked and how they did things.

Thanks for the info you provided.

I got a quote of 480 dollars for a guy to come out and weld the ear back on. I almost fell out of my chair. If it was the correct rear end I might have done it. Although I was reading on the Lincoln welding site welding cast is difficult but not impossible. But they are pretty clear that it really should be used for cracks and attaching two pieces of cast together is not recommended. They also recommend preheating the cast to 600 degree before welding. They have special rods for cast that I did not know existed.

OK, seems you have some info on the rear axle casting codes.

The AMA specs only seems to have gear ratio choices for the GTO - with 4 Bbl the 3.23 as standard gear for both manual & auto. The GTO with tri-power option lists 3.55 as standard gear for both manual & auto. The gear ratio's I first provided came from the GTO Association handbook on GTO specs that they publish.

Cast iron can be welded. I have seen a factory weld repair to a head where the rocker arm stand was fixed. Cheaper to fix a small a small defect rather than cast another head. There are several techniques - heat or no heat. The pieces can be pinned together with a stud prior to welding as well. They make welding rods that can repair cast iron with some being a nickel based rod. From what I have been told, once welded using the nickel rod, the piece cannot be machined as the nickel/weld is extremely hard.

 

[tonyskala]

I dropped both of my rear ends of this am to a fella near me who said he can rebuild the rear end for 600.

When we got them out of the truck and set them side by side I can see the difference between the rear end cast codes 9773722 and 9779822.

It turns out that the ear on the top of the differential with cast code 9779822 has a much larger diameter hold for mounting the rear top trailing arm.

The rear diff that is cast code 9779822 has a smaller diameter hole. Other than that from the exterior they appear to be 100% identical.

It looks to me that the 9779822 were on earlier cars and that Pontiac might have switched over to 9779822. Probably because the larger diameter bushing was better or something for torque. Maybe different gear ratios got you one as opposed to the other. I have an automatic transmission with 3.23 so this was not really a torque monster. Perhaps thats why this car got the smaller bushing rear end. But it looks like there is more meat around the bushing. I would think this added strength to the set up. But since torque twists, maybe a better or larger bushing was required.


https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119415&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119413&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119417&stc=1&d=1559941100

https://www.gtoforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119419&stc=1&d=1559941100


A couple of months ago I got a smaller media blast cabinet thinking I would be able to clean these parts on my own. Well the thing works but it takes for ever to clean these parts. And some of my stuff is heavily pitted I have to boost pressure to 260 and it still takes a long time to do these parts. I think I will just get some after market arms and just call it a day. I saw a set of upper and lowers for 470.00. I am getting new springs. My brother in law gave me a nice set of trailing arms upper and lowers. The lowers were already boxed. He said he did not know who boxed them but the weld was sloppy. So I took a grinder to it and made it look nice and neat. I will post some pictures tomorrow.

Now I need to source the bolts for this thing. Every single bolt was rusted and then cut off. I started looking at ARP bolts and had no idea they were so expensive.

 

[PontiacJim]

Interesting. It may be the photos, but the rear center sections look different. The later rear end appears to have a little more length and beef from the center case to where the axle tube is inserted? So similar, but not the same?

 

[tonyskala]

Ok... So I have had most of the suspesion parts for a while now and the body guy doesn't want to do anything until he gets it on the frame. He cant move it around with outthe axels and front end so I need to get this all pieced together.

So My a arms are pitted and I am just going to get new ones. After I push the bushings out and media blast them I figure I would be in it slightly more than just buying new ones.

I found stock ones for 510 shipped both super and lowers.

Sway bar will be reused

Power steering gear box will be rebuilt by a company in LA for 200 bucks shipping not included. Something about reciprocating ball. Need new rag joint.

The links and bearings will be all new. This is all standard stuff

The springs are confusing me. And I need the forum's help

I have nearly stock 389 with iron heads. I see 4 types of springs for the front

500 lbs
250 to 350 lbs
200 to 240 lbs
180 to 230 lbs

I want bone stock but want the car to ride level. The instructions say they may need to be trimmed which runs counter to what I thought. Does anyone one know what the damn thing came with stock. I dont want to spend more money than I need to rebuying this stuff and have no idea how this thing will sit since I have never seen it actually properly assembled.

is a 389 with iron heads considered a big block.

 

[tonyskala]

Ok I think I found it in the AMA Specifications

if anyone ever cares the factory stuff was

Size 11.4 x 3.6

Spring Weight (lbs per in) 225 ....but there is a foot note (b)(e)
b- Except 275 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

Rate at wheel (lbs per in) 66 ....but there is a foot note (c)(e)
c- 80 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

Design Load (lb @ design height) 1380- 1430 ....but there is a foot note (d)(e)
d- 1635 - 1685 with optional V-8 engine
e- Heavy Duty Springs optional on all models

So I am guessing that stock cast iron block with cast iron heads fall into spring rate of 275lbs with design load of 1635 to 1685

 

[tonyskala]

Ok I am at a cross road where the car will be different on the route I take.

So I have the whole chasis pulled apart and this thing had more grease and dirt on it than I thought. I got it clean enough to see that the entire hardware of the front and rear braking systems was shot. The backing plates were so pitted and rusted. So the rear end builder held off on inserting the axles until I found the backing plates. So when I priced the rear brake system out it was so close to just getting a whole kit pre assembled. So I dropped 430 dollars on a complete set of drum brakes. Those should be here tomorrow. Now the front......

So they are just as bad. The spindle and arm are the only thing useable. So I tried to find a backing plate.... I can't. I can find used ones, but nothing new. Then the drums, springs, shoes, bearings, studs, .... I will be into it for another 400. Then I caught my self.... I could have got a complete system with brake lines for 900. And it would actually stop the car...

I can't do anything about the rears. They will be here soon. But the fronts I think I am just going to go with a disk brake conversion.

It will make this thing easier to drive. But I feel terrible about doing it.

 

[PontiacJim]

You will appreciate the disc brakes up front the first time you have to do a panic stop because some idiot doesn't know how to drive. So, it really does not hurt value per say and what good is trying to stay original if some day the braking just isn't responsive enough and you crash or total out the car?

Just make sure you get the matching dual reservoir master cylinder and related parts for the disc/drum conversion.

 

[tonyskala]

Ok...

Got a complete rear end rebuild drum brake kit. (430 Dollars) This came with everything need to overhaul the system, Will install it tonight. then it is just 2 bushings on top of the differential and the rear end is DONE. He has not told me final cost on rear end rebuild but hopefully it will be right around 600...
New rear coil spings (70 Dollars) and there is a difference for convert and coup. Those rubber bushings that go onto of the springs were like 30 Dollars for the pair on the rear and equally expensive for the fronts.
Got new 250LBS to 300LBS springs for the front. (120 Dollars)
New upper and lower A Arms (500 dollars)
Rebuilt Transmission (1250 Dollars) This dude though I was crazy rebuilding a 2 speed ST300 Transmission. And to boot he seems to have lost the torque converter and I can not find another one.
Sway Bar was sand blasted and just painted.
New Sway bar bushings and stabilizers (30 Dollars)
New Tierods, center link Ideler arm and pitman Arm (300 Dollars)
New Power Steering Gear Box I got so lucky and found one on Craigslist for (200 Dollars) It was New Old Stock....
Front Disk brake conversion with matching Master Cylinder (480 Dollars)
Front and rear shocks (100 Dollars)
Fuel Lines and brake Lines (300 Dollars)

I am missing all sorts of bolts and clips and dont even know what I need yet on this front.

I am kinda of excited to merry up this transmission and engine together. Just have to find this ST300 torque converter. there is one on eBay but I am not entirely sure if it will work for me. Apparently there are differences because Pontiacs are externally balanced. So this Torque converter has external weights and tabs on it.

 

[tonyskala]

So I kn ow the economy is getting bad because the body shop called me and asked for some money because he has been carrying my project for a while. I reminded him of the completion date of three weeks that was over a year ago. He acquessed. Told me 4 weeks.

So today he sent me me pictures of the powder coated frame and the install of all the new crap I gave him

I have not seen it physically yet. But looks like he has the control arms upper and lower mounted, springs, shocks, tie rods, rotors, sway bar, steering box, the steering linkage all mounted up.

The he texted me couple of hours later and told me there was a problem with the upper rear trailing arm. the one I gave him was too short.

I guess there are two types. One is shorter than the other. I started calling around and all I could find was the 10 3/8 center on center ones. apparently mine needs the 11 3/16 ones. He managed to source some for a 100 dollars. I found them on ebay for 80 but not sure of the length and he said these arms are real the only thing holding the chassis tot he the Axel and he needed them to move forward on the car. He said he count powder coat them but he would sand them up real nice and paint them.

I also just realized that we did not fill the differential with gear oil. We are not running it or pushing it around yet so I will fill it with I think 80/90 Lucas or Royal purple on Monday when I drop off more parts.

I could not find the rear backing plate replacement for the front drums. I found some cruddy used ones and after thinking it through I thought it was stupid to sink that much coin into the front brakes where a disk conversion would be far super and just about 50 dollars more. But that changed my brake lines. I still have to get those and will buy them this weekend.

 

[tonyskala]

Convertible body flexing too much with out the frame under it. So they mounted the frame tot he body and will paint it together, Not separately like I thought.

I picked up the engine from storage and finished bolting everything on it. I am not sure if I will drop it off like this or pull the stuff hanging off, off of it to make it easier to install.

I have never had this engine fully assembled and did not have a lot of the accessory components.

The power setting set up was a pain to source correctly. The brackets are hard to source and quite expensive. The belts are also had to figure out.

So on the tempest assembly manual it shows the set up one way and the gto restoration guide show the setup yet another way. On power steering cars with out ac non tripower... the belts are exact replicas of one another. Your power steering pulley and alternator pulley are double groves and both groves go around the crank, water pump, alternator, and power steering pump according to the tempest manual. Then there are 2 top brackets for the alternator.

On the resoration guide it shows the alternator with single pulley and power steering pump with single pulley.

Then the 1st belt goes crank , water pump, alternator, and second belt goes crank , water pump, power steering pump.

Power steering pump was a pint to find at a reasonable price. And a lot of them had the new resiviour. I winded up buying a used resivour and just seating the new pump into it. I am just hoping the seals dont leak. A proper cap for that pump have asking prices of 40 dollars. That power steering pump pulley have asking prices of 60 dollars. the t bracket is like 35 dollars. Also the 2 belts where they cross were very close to rubbing. So the power steering pump was shimmed out about 1/8th of an inch. I think it will be ok now. I need a dipstick and at this point will probably just get a Mr. Gasket one. Also the oil breater and oil filler caps are extremely expensive for what they are. Anyone else doing it should find the valve covers that only have 1 hole. These covers both had holes and then there is a plug for the passenger side one. I have been some that have a pipe going to the air cleaner but by air cleaner does not have a hole for the insert. So I figured to just put a breather right off the valve cover. Not sure how or if it will even effect performance.

I will build a custom wooden stand for it this week and bold up the torque converter and transmission to it so it can be dropped in as a single unit.

I know the alternator pulley is not supposed to be black. But after sand blasting it looked terrible so I went ahead and had it powder coated with he rest of the pulleys.

I really want to just get this thing back together

 

[tonyskala]

What a rough year I had in 2020. Some of it my own doing. I woke up one morning and stumbled backwards into a Dodge Charger.. So of course I bought it. It wound up having lots of quarky little issues we have been trying to sort our. But dont worry.. I am still a Pontiac man. Mopars are just not easy to work on.

So I just got a text from the body shop telling me the car was finally painted. He sent me these three photos and I got super excited. Then he asked me to drop off all that I have so they can get this thing back together and I turned white. My parts are scattered all over and I never got around to actually restoring some of them. So now I am in a scramble.

I need some guidance on the torque converter, flex plate, and transmission mount. I did not take it apart and did not see how it came apart. I was hoping one of the more seasoned guys here (ehem PONTIAC JIM) can set me straight. I am going to my folks place where I have stored the engine to take pictures of the parts that are there. I will post those in a few hours. The shop manual I have is very detailed on the rebuild of the transmissions but I can not find anything in it on the order of these washers and this spacer in there. Because my garage is filled to the hilt with crap the more of the car the guy puts together the better. I just dont have the room. So something like the engine I would like him to do.

 

[PontiacJim]

Pretty straight forward on the flexplate parts - shim, flexplate, bolts/star(lock) washers. Trans mount should also be straight forward and be shown in the shop manual.

Here is a good explanation of the flexplate parts and how they go on.

Flexplate / flywheel

Well, I had a nightmare last night.... I dreamed I installed the flywheel/ flex plate backwards.... The engine is in and the starter looks a little away from the flywheel teeth....Good thing is I haven't gotten too far with the install to take it back out if necessary. my question is; the...

www.gtoforum.com

I do not know what the "bolt plate" is, but sounds almost similar to the shim plate, but on the converter side and under the heads of the flexplate bolts. I don't recall these on 1968 and up on the cars I did, just the shim plate. So if you find one, then use it, if not, I would think you can still bolt down the flexplate without it. Here is another post from PY which goes into the crank side plate - and it doesn't look like you need it if you don't have it. I do recall the crankshaft bolts & star type lock washers.

Flex Plate re-enforcing plate - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together

I also included the AMES catalog page mentioned which show the flywheel and flexplate bolts.

 

[tonyskala]

Ok so here is the actual flex plate. So When I picked up the engine the guy gave me this plate 6 bolts and that smaller circular plate. The smaller circular plate is concave and not flat. On the flex plate there is an imprint on plex plate of where it was fastened. I am guessing that this is some type of strengthening plate, or a spacer. I am guessing that the smaller concave circular plate faces the torque converter. But I can not find it in any documentation. I am pretty sure it goes like this because the flex plate has an indentation that lines up with the smaller circular concave plate.

If you guys saw my driveway and all the crap in my garage you would understand why I want him to drop it in. I dont want to pull the motor out later to correct this if i get it wrong. I just dont have space.

 

[tonyskala]

So i had a very hard time finding the correct torque converter for this thing. I was told this transmission was the one with a varible pitch stator but it wasnt. If anyone cares the 2 speed auto in the gto was a variation if the ST300 and there were two versions. The way to tell the difference externally is the electrical plug on the side. If it has one prong it does not have the variable pitch stator , if it has two prongs it does have the varible pitch stator. The flex plate was different on the non varible pitch transmission. The 3 mounting holes are further out and luckily for me offer more options for better torque converters. Elected to go with a 1800 to 2000 stall converter.
Care has been painted and is going to start being put back together in the next 2 weeks

 

[PontiacJim]

Looking good. Just takes time on such a big project build.

The ST300 used by Pontiac is a Buick transmission, as you found out. The switch pitch converter was used by Buick. Pontiac did not use it. The switch pitch was also used on the Buick ST400 and TH-400. My 1954 Buick had this feature, it was called a variable pitch converter.

The kickdown for the Pontiac ST300 trans is electric and is operated by a switch found on/near the carb linkage - as I recall, as other members have had it missing or had problems finding an original replacement. So make sure you have this or your trans won't operate correctly. Your service manual may show it and how to adjust it.