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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

I am looking to buy this 67 GTO convertible for 45,000 but I am skeptical about the car being a legit GTO because of the price. Vin on the firewall and driver side door are matched
VIN: 242677B135377
No noticeable signs of the car being tampered with in any way. The car is PHS documented, any possible way this car could be a fake? One thing I noticed was the blue color I found on the inside of the convertible top. I suppose the car could’ve been repainted but I’m not exactly sure. Vin indicates the car was red from the factory. Should I look into the PHS documentation myself? What are signs that this may be a fake. Car is in good shape, paint is not the best, but overall a really clean car. I attached some pictures as well as some documentation the seller has. Let me know what you think
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When you say VIN on the firewall, what are you talking about? Do you have pictures? I don’t think the VIN was on the firewall in 67.

Also, the document in your picture is not what you want for PHS documentation. You want to see the car billing history document.

Unfortunately there is a lot of fraud out there. I am not saying it is fraud in this case, but the only way to be sure is to get your own PHS documents directly from PHS.
 

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Document shows optional turbo-hydramatic transmission, picture shows a 4 speed?
That doesn't shout "fake" to me but it has been converted.
 

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I would order the PHS myself and view them personally, so you know that the car is a GTO. You can have them fax you the info for a faster viewing.

The plate on the firewall is the Data Tag. It does not have a VIN, but will have the "242" in the body style. The Data tag will also provide info to help decipher the car and will match the PHS documents to confirm your options. These can be faked as well.

You can also verify the VIN number with the VIN number at the left rear frame rail just past the arch going over the tire. It is said to be stamped on the top a few inches back and you will need to clean it up a little and use a mirror to see it. Some may have them on the side of the rail. It will not be a complete VIN, just a partial, but it will match.

Is it an original engine? Does it have the correct 1967 "067" heads - the casting number found on the center exhaust port an will be obvious. Original Q-jet? Numbers are typically stamped on the side vertically. The 1967 only engine used a unique intake having an exhaust heat passageway under the carb. It will have a casting number that can be researched on the internet to verify. To confirm the correct block, they were not VIN stamped until 1968. So you will want to look back near the distributor for the casting date code which will confirm a 1967 block.

The 4-speed swap is common and not a deal breaker as many will want a 4-speed and the conversion can actually increase value in this case. I would want to know what the rear end is. Why? Most likely the TH-400 was geared lower than what you would need with a manual shift car. Standard ratio on a manual shift car was 3.23's with 3.36 & 3.55's the more common optioned rear axle ratio. The PHS documents will specify what the car originally came with. There is a 2 letter code stamped on the rear axle tube that will ID the gear ratio. It may have been changed, no big deal, but verifying the axle ration via the axle tube and matching it against the PHS documents will let you know if it is still the original rear end under the car.

The transmission may also have a stamping on it and VIN. Knowing what year and what car make, ie Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds, etc. will just give you an idea of what you have. Some can be better than others.

You are spending a big chunk of change, so you want to crawl all over the car and know what is original and what is not - it could affect resale pricing when/if that time comes. But, if you just like it and got to have it, buy it and run with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
When you say VIN on the firewall, what are you talking about? Do you have pictures? I don’t think the VIN was on the firewall in 67.

Also, the document in your picture is not what you want for PHS documentation. You want to see the car billing history document.

Unfortunately there is a lot of fraud out there. I am not saying it is fraud in this case, but the only way to be sure is to get your own PHS documents directly from PHS.
When you say VIN on the firewall, what are you talking about? Do you have pictures? I don’t think the VIN was on the firewall in 67.

Also, the document in your picture is not what you want for PHS documentation. You want to see the car billing history document.

Unfortunately there is a lot of fraud out there. I am not saying it is fraud in this case, but the only way to be sure is to get your own PHS documents directly from PHS.
My apologies, not the VIN it is the data plate on the firewall. I did a little research and it appears that this is a standard spot for 1967. I will be going to look at the car for a 2nd time this weekend and will try to grab some more pictures. But if the VIN on the car matches title, then there is no doubt the car is a real GTO, right? I will be ordering the PHS documentation as well as this is a large purchase
 

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Discussion Starter #6
  • When you say VIN on the firewall, what are you talking about? Do you have pictures? I don’t think the VIN was on the firewall in 67.

    Also, the document in your picture is not what you want for PHS documentation. You want to see the car billing history document.

    Unfortunately there is a lot of fraud out there. I am not saying it is fraud in this case, but the only way to be sure is to get your own PHS documents directly from PHS.
    Document shows optional turbo-hydramatic transmission, picture shows a 4 speed?
    That doesn't shout "fake" to me but it has been converted.
    I did bring that up to the owner and he said it was converted by the previous owner. I have no problem with this and would almost prefer the 4 speed. But yes that is not original.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I would order the PHS myself and view them personally, so you know that the car is a GTO. You can have them fax you the info for a faster viewing.

The plate on the firewall is the Data Tag. It does not have a VIN, but will have the "242" in the body style. The Data tag will also provide info to help decipher the car and will match the PHS documents to confirm your options. These can be faked as well.

You can also verify the VIN number with the VIN number at the left rear frame rail just past the arch going over the tire. It is said to be stamped on the top a few inches back and you will need to clean it up a little and use a mirror to see it. Some may have them on the side of the rail. It will not be a complete VIN, just a partial, but it will match.

Is it an original engine? Does it have the correct 1967 "067" heads - the casting number found on the center exhaust port an will be obvious. Original Q-jet? Numbers are typically stamped on the side vertically. The 1967 only engine used a unique intake having an exhaust heat passageway under the carb. It will have a casting number that can be researched on the internet to verify. To confirm the correct block, they were not VIN stamped until 1968. So you will want to look back near the distributor for the casting date code which will confirm a 1967 block.

The 4-speed swap is common and not a deal breaker as many will want a 4-speed and the conversion can actually increase value in this case. I would want to know what the rear end is. Why? Most likely the TH-400 was geared lower than what you would need with a manual shift car. Standard ratio on a manual shift car was 3.23's with 3.36 & 3.55's the more common optioned rear axle ratio. The PHS documents will specify what the car originally came with. There is a 2 letter code stamped on the rear axle tube that will ID the gear ratio. It may have been changed, no big deal, but verifying the axle ration via the axle tube and matching it against the PHS documents will let you know if it is still the original rear end under the car.

The transmission may also have a stamping on it and VIN. Knowing what year and what car make, ie Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds, etc. will just give you an idea of what you have. Some can be better than others.

You are spending a big chunk of change, so you want to crawl all over the car and know what is original and what is not - it could affect resale pricing when/if that time comes. But, if you just like it and got to have it, buy it and run with it.
I do plan on ordering the PHS documentation myself as it is only $80 or so and want to make sure I’m getting the real deal here.
I have never heard of checking the VIN at that location but I will definitely look into that when I go look at the car. As far as the motor, it is not original. And the conversion is fine with me as I actually prefer the 4 speed. Thank you for all these tips, I’ll be sure to check out the rear end and transmission when I go look at the car again!
 
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