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Discussion Starter #1
Yo!

So this is the beginning. I'm as green as a blade of grass in April when it comes to forums but I wanted to find a place to lay down my experiences and progress with this unique personal project. I'm sure there will be many who will cringe at what i've done but I wanted to make this car my own. I wanted to merge modern tech with old-school muscle and the raw brutality that I find in my definition of a true muscle car. GTO's are arguably the first true muscle car and there are plenty of other's who own "Pony" cars that would beg to differ. I love this car and I appreciate what Delorean was trying to do in the mid-late 60's with this car. He appreciated the style of Eruo cars but wanted to merge it will the large size and power that became the GTO. Maybe I'm wrong there but that's my opinion from what I've read.
I'm going to take that and run with it. Unfortunately my budget is not limitless but i feel I am able to make some good compromises. I would love to have the ability to throw in the absolute top of the line products and make this car everything I have ever dreamed of but I don't and I can't. However, i have made some quality decisions and have been extremely satisfied to date...

Enjoy... Below is what I was starting with...
 

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Yo!

So this is the beginning. I'm as green as a blade of grass in April when it comes to forums but I wanted to find a place to lay down my experiences and progress with this unique personal project. I'm sure there will be many who will cringe at what i've done but I wanted to make this car my own. I wanted to merge modern tech with old-school muscle and the raw brutality that I find in my definition of a true muscle car. GTO's are arguably the first true muscle car and there are plenty of other's who own "Pony" cars that would beg to differ. I love this car and I appreciate what Delorean was trying to do in the mid-late 60's with this car. He appreciated the style of Eruo cars but wanted to merge it will the large size and power that became the GTO. Maybe I'm wrong there but that's my opinion from what I've read.
I'm going to take that and run with it. Unfortunately my budget is not limitless but i feel I am able to make some good compromises. I would love to have the ability to throw in the absolute top of the line products and make this car everything I have ever dreamed of but I don't and I can't. However, i have made some quality decisions and have been extremely satisfied to date...

Enjoy... Below is what I was starting with...

No, nobody is going to cringe on this forum as we welcome all aspects of "what we do" to our rides, from 100 point restorations to rat rod style. Most preserve the image of the Pontiac with keeping it Pontiac powered. Some go the LS swap, but I am one who scorns with sacrilegious (gross irreverence toward a hallowed thing) abomination (a feeling of disgust or hatred) as it is a slap to the face of such an iconic automobile, and because it was the Pontiac engine that created the image that all have come to know.

However, I am no purist by any means and fall heavy towards the hot rod camp and understand the LS swap - just don't care for it when there are plenty of Pontiac engines available to build. The saying here is, "its your car and build it the way you want to." I considered doing a "Mad Maxx" version of my '68 Lemans - gutted interior, roof spoiler, removing the rear glass/window shelf/trunk lid and inserting a large round "gas tank," roll bar, truck bolt-on fender flares, zoomie header pipes coming out below the rocker panels, dummy blower set-up, matte black, etc..

Instead going the mid-seventies look based more on a drag racer, 455CI, 5-speed, Ford 9", tunnel ram with dual quads, velocity stacks, zoomie header pipes, one piece fiberglass flip nose, stripped interior, roll bar, jacked up in the rear, 12" wide tires hanging out the wheel well, matte black, etc..

So ask all the questions you need and be sure to post pics as the build progresses. It's all about ownership and enjoying your ride. :thumbsup:
 

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More power to you, You have to go for it. Keep us in the loop on the build and any problems that you have. I have a 68 Convertible that I am slowly bringing back to original condition. The big thing is to enjoy the process as well as the result. Have fun!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
My first engine build...

However, I am no purist by any means and fall heavy towards the hot rod camp and understand the LS swap - just don't care for it when there are plenty of Pontiac engines available to build. The saying here is, "its your car and build it the way you want to." I considered doing a "Mad Maxx" version of my '68 Lemans - gutted interior, roof spoiler, removing the rear glass/window shelf/trunk lid and inserting a large round "gas tank," roll bar, truck bolt-on fender flares, zoomie header pipes coming out below the rocker panels, dummy blower set-up, matte black, etc..

:thumbsup:

Thanks man. Many pictures to come. I have a deep love for Pontiac as most do who are fortunate enough to sample their awesomeness...

I'm personally on the fence over the LS swap but I totally appreciate it. You couldn't be more right though... There are more than enough Pontiac blocks out there to keep the heart and soul of these beauties true.

I purchased this car January 2001. I was a senior in high school and, at the time, had a '68 Lemans I wanted to turn into a GTO clone. I purchased a 400 short block and sold the 350 in the Lemans. My best friends dad was selling the GTO for $5k and she was in great shape, I lived in California at the time. I couldn't pass it up. I sold the Lemans, bought my baby and never looked back. It was numbers matching at the time but that wouldn't last...

In the service I was reading Hot ROd and High Performance Pontiac and anything else I could get me hands on. Hot Rod did an article on a Pontiac 400 dyno monster and I was young and dumb and wanted to copy them. I had to replace the block the GTO came with as the lower P/S corner where the bell housing mounts was completely missing. A huge chunk of casting gone, bell housing had a spiderweb of cracks and the trans had one of the mounting lugs welded back on. I couldn't take a chance on the block having internal cracks after taking a hit so strong to have caused this much external damage. The culprit, I suspect, was a speed bump... There were clamps in the front springs to drop it and spacers in the rear springs to lift it... This was all from some kid who was three owners back... I kept the trans but that's it... fortunately I had a spotless 400 short block in my garage all ready from '69.

This is what I made out of it and sadly in my young naivety... I had to cut a gaping hole in the pristine hood... One of my greatest regrets... This engine build would turn into something great... a great learning experience and an even greater jaw dropping near miss that I recently discovered upon taring the engine down for a much better rebuild, which I am currently in the middle of
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Foreshadowing...

Here she is in her current status today... Much more to come on how I got here and where I'm going... The engine paint is being stripped to go black. I thought the Green would pop under the hood of a satin black body but proved to be yet another naive decision. It was chipping badly and was so hard to keep clean and scratch free... No more spray bomb and time to give it a K.I.S.S.

noob question... how do i submit pictures in the body of the text and not as separate attachments?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So I built the engine you see above in my first build post and spent good money on good parts. It was my first ever engine build. Speed Pro Pistons, Huge H-beam connecting rods, performer rpm heads with 72cc chambers, punched out 0.040”, huge cam (nearly catastrophically too big and more on this later), bullit proof bell housing, high rise intake, 750 Dominator, centerforce dual friction clutch, March pullies.... etc. about $10k when it was all said and done.

Broke it in and was scare to death on the first startup. She was an absolute beast. Going 80 on the highway, just slowly stabbing the throttle would brake her loose. Even with good meat on the road, 275/60-15. I was so damn proud. I had no idea what damages were beginning, however or how lucky I was she didn’t grenade on me...

Originally a vinyl top... the roof was terrible underneath so we wire wheeled best we could, hit it with rust converter and then did something else I would later regret... rolled on a DIY rhino liner. We wanted the vinyl top contrast and it looked awesome. This was back in 2001. Way before the current amazing reproduction roof skin was even a thing. Today that rhino liner is gone but what the words PITA getting off. I built that engine in ‘04 and I don’t think I put more than 2k miles on in until I put her to bed and never touched her again until last year.

I took a divorce to allow me to actually turn a single wrench on her and for many reasons, I’m glad to be out of that situation.

Now I will pick up with the beginning of the full resto she is going through.....
 

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Don't put yourself down, no shame is allowed here! :nonod: Cars are a learning process and you can only do what you know how to do at that time. Your vision will also change as you change over time. The car will be a great diversion after going through the divorce - done it twice and won't ever get married again. If you have children, include them in your life as much as possible and don't make them choose between parents - as they love both. Took me almost 20 years to rebound from my divorces (the financial aspect) and get back into my '68 Lemans. Then is has taken a number of years to build up the "play money" to do the rebuild the way I want to do it.

The hot rod primer grey spray bomb can look good when new, but it oxidizes, and is not a sealant like paint is - so it breaks down. First did my '68 Lemans in primer grey just to make it one color and presentable knowing it was going to die off on me. Better to get a matte black/semi-gloss paint or if spray painting, have the local paint shop reduce the gloss by adding a flattening agent. You can ask for a 60% gloss for example. Then you will have a paint like any other that can be washed, cleaned, and assume waxed. When the time comes, I'll have my paint store mix me a few samples at different percentages of gloss, spray a panel, and see what I like. You can also do this with any color. I think some colors actually look better dulled out slightly than a high gloss finish - it can pull out some of the body lines better in my opinion.

The engine looks like a good starting place seeing you have already done it once. Cubes rule and with the complete kits that can up the cubes of a 400CI to 461 or so, it is one of the best bangs for your buck - if you need to go this way due to a change of parts in your engine. Often, many will select a cam that can be too big. Sure, very cool to have gobs of HP on tap that instantly fries tires - even I like that, but if you really want to do some cruising or take in a show you may have to drive a few hours to get to and don't have that truck and trailer to tow it with, you want to make some compromises on the cam. That's where the bigger cubes of a stroker kit can come into play by adding more torque at lower RPM's to replace the radical cam and still get the same end result - a tire shredder. So you have options.

Keep in mind that some of us here do not have an "account" with Pinterest so we cannot fully see all the pics. If you use Pinterest for your build, keep this in mind and share a few pics with us on the forum. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
The old cliche... If I knew then, when I first built this engine, what I know now I would certainly have stroked it. I couldn't agree more about bang for your buck. That will have to wait until the next complete engine overhaul. My problem with the cam was a few things. One, I never checked the piston clearance. I thought... well they built this engine with all of these parts and didn't have an issue... why should I...

So I built an awesome first engine. It idled terribly and always shot a 3' flame out of the carb... I had timing issues not to mention, I built a dyno engine. It was not street friendly at all. Wide open it was bad a$$ but that's about it. Little did I know what the timing culprit was... So fast forward from 2004 to 2016 when i bought a house and decided to finally rip into her and start figuring out how bad they rust was. It wasn't too bad come to find out but I still don't know why i tore into her so deeply knowing well enough that my wife at the time wouldn't let me buy a body bushing kit let alone pay to remediate the rust or fix what i found in the engine....

We'll start with the engine...

So I had a nagging oil leak in the oil pan and the rear main so I had to pull the engine to get to them. I also had a small coolant leak around the timing chain cover so i begrudgingly pulled that off, fortunately I pulled it that is... I was running an Edelbrock timing gear set, loved it but not worth the price. The second i pulled the cover the bold securing the gear to the cam fell to the ground and so did my stomach...
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Turns out by inspecting the markings on the bolt head... somehow I installed a metric bolt. Sure it torqued up but obviously it was cross threaded and worked itself out. If I had been using a normal timing chain my engine would have been trashed... Those large pins on the idler gears were actually making contact with the inside of the cover and holding everything in place, the fuel pump cam was too. The large gear key way slot was beaten open pretty good so that slop was where my inconsistent timing issues were coming from. Knowing i had to replace the cam now as the inside was polished smooth where that bolt was banging around, I went ahead and pulled the heads... The discoveries kept coming...

Every piston looked like the attached.

The exhaust valve was making contact but not much. The pistons are aluminum and quite soft. It was only the sharp edge of the valve relief they were hitting and after pulling the valves and inspecting them, they turned out to be perfect and true. I was so damn lucky... I went ahead and cleaned the pistons up by gently hitting them with a carbide bit. Dishing them slightly on the exhaust side.

Since I knew this car wasn't going anywhere for a long time, because of a lack of being able to spend... I went full bore and ripped her apart....



That one with the front end completely torn apart is what she looked like when I moved out... Not even a rolling chase... So the house was being sold and I had to act fast to get her rolling again. I said screw it and did what I want for once. I had enough saved up to get her to Stage 2 as Stage 3 suspension was only a pipe dream so I pulled the trigger on upgraded brakes as this is what the original ones looked like...
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
ugly...

I went with an awesome Willwood setup and a Stage 2 suspension kit from BMR and a beefy steering linkage kit from Proforged Steering Rebuild Kit..... I also didn't have time or space to do a full frame off so i cleaned up the front half and re painted...

Degreased, wire brushed and metal etched...

[/url]02D0AE89-850D-43B6-B665-F4A2B79384F5 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Primed with Rustoleum's rusty metal red oxide primer

[/url]0F032EAE-5298-4A38-B26E-F0A1008C23B5 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Painted with the help of my boy. We have a great connection and he loves helping on this project. I don't push him so it never seems like a chore to him. I always let him and encourage him to help as much or as little as he wants

[/url]970BAD8E-A70A-4EE5-8FFC-0904ED011E88 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

The finished product...

[/url]CE92327F-7A76-4F07-8F89-31552BC612D4 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]6CFC05E8-4CE8-4628-9709-982A244E15FD by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Huge difference in the steering components. They are freakin amazing!

[/url]628015E2-FB43-423B-8012-77F610B2304E by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]C167CAD0-E5BA-4582-B930-AB2F3772EBF0 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
The brakes and my 2" drop spindles by CPP and the stage 2 BMR suspension package with Bilstein shocks and 1" lowering springs... I may have a ride height issue but we'll see. Everything went together very nicely. I have an issue with the bump stop fr the upper A-arm as it doesn't make contact with anything.... I'll have to address this once the care comes back from the body shop...

[/url]52F617F3-37B0-475F-A00C-041E824A5932 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]813CA9FF-3DF1-41A6-9B5E-4A5EC99B9549 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

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Ignore the Christmas colors on the engine... LOL!!!

The sway bar is an absolute beast!!

[/url]0113E9B4-A91C-45F1-BEB5-6BF01FEE5ADA by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

This is one of many piles of parts awaiting the arrival of the car. Complete wire harness, radiator and fans, Wilwood MC and on and on.... I also have the rear of the suspension to install from that kit....

[/url]B9C13665-FF9C-4DDD-B94A-C6FF74606E4E by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

There are many things that will need to wait... First I still need a carb, I'm thinking a 750 Quick Fuel with Annular secondaries.... I also need wheels and tires so between those three I'm looking at another $1700-1900... I want to rebuild the rear end and install disks in the rear as well but I can at least get her running for now as I don't want the engine to sit another year without running. The last time i opened it there was surface rust on the cylinder walls... I also would like to be able to listen to music but luxuries like that will have to wait for sure!!

Stay tuned.... more to come on where the body stands now.... I'm going to the shop tomorrow to deliver the rear window I took out and to take pictures. They are taking care of the last rust spot and will be shooting primer today maybe... I don't want it to sit primed for too long either so I will need to get it ready for final paint which will be a satin black. Not a flat matte black but one that has just a touch of shine also all of the trim will be blacked out including the rear bumper... this is an example of what I'm after...

[/url]inspiration by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]perfect if they were hoosiers by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

I also just picked up a set of valve covers from Butler Performance and let me tell you..... WOW!!!!! They are beautiful and worth every penny... Also I installed their billet valley pan. I'm not sure on it's seal but we'll see.....

[/url]covers by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

More on the engine specs and components later.....

OPGI has had the steering box I want on back order since March and it looks like I won't get until July.... Ugh...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
aaaaaannnnddddd..... It looks like Photobucket doesn't like to play for free so I will be editing those posts as soon as I find a site that will allow 3rd party hosting for free... I'm not paying them $400/year to do that
 

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Discussion Starter #16
So the green is gone on the engine... It would have looked awesome but with the red suspension it looked way too much like Christmas.....

I didn't want to completely tare the block apart again just to paint so I went ahead and masked off the heads best I could because the method I chose to use is dangerous with respect to the aluminum heads. I bought two cans of Easy-Off oven cleaner and went to town. First I tried it out on an inconspicuous spot in the rear of the engine that would be covered by the bell-housing. Since the engine is cold steel i needed to let the stuff soak for a couple hours covered so it didn't dry out too quickly. This stuff worked like a champ!
You really need to be extra careful using it but if you are, it is worth the effort. The old coating came right off and this stuff will draw out all the grease and oil from the pores of the cast block. I also used an aircraft paint stripper on the timing cover as I didn't want to use this stuff on that cover as it's cast aluminum...

These are some of the pictures during the stripping process... I'll upload more of the bare block tomorrow night. I also applied te first of three steps of the KBS engine coating system. I used a diluted solution of KBS Clean and let that soak for about 20 min before rinsing off. Tomorrow I will be applying the KBS Rust Blocker which is a metal etch and rust converter to prime the surfaces for the final KBS engine seal coating, black...

After one application of the oven cleaner...

[/url]09E3A358-5368-4D5A-A5A5-D60362A3ED4F by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

The process...

[/url]IMG-2448 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]IMG-2449 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

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[/url]IMG-2452 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Stay tuned.... The body is coming back from the shop later this week! Glass is going back in now!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Let’s rewind to the body......

There’s nothing like trying to do a full restoration around a divorce and moving twice... so I assembled the front suspension and mounted the engine to make moving the car into storage easier. While living in an apartment and the car was in a self storage unit, wadded up in there nicely, I began my search for a shop. Maybe I could’ve found one more cost effective, maybe I could’ve found one closer to home.... I am in the Syracuse area and I know there are many shops around here. Word of mouth is huge for this part and I don’t know anyone around here.

I’m originally from California and since I moved around so damn much within NY over the past few years I’ve never had the chance to really get to know many car guys to reference a good shop. I relied on google. I found a few shops here and there until I stumbled upon B&B Automotive in Newark Valley. It’s about two hours from me and in the middle of nowhere.

I met the owner at my storage unit and got an estimate. The usuals were shot whith my baby. Trunk filler panel, 2/3 of the lower trunk pan, package tray was a little rough but salvageable, a couple rough spots on the fender dog legs, a couple rough spots around the rear wheel wells and richer panel areas and annoyingly the roof....

Since my budget isn’t limitless and I want to drive this thing again in my lifetime I decided to only take care of the rott. There are a couple other cosmetic issues but that can wait. The quarters took a hit at some point and they were hammered out but are still bumpy so those could be changed. I’d like to box in the frame but that can wait too. The floors, cowle, firewall and everything else is in excellent shape. The roof was trashed because it was a vinyl top and had gotten really bad inder it. The previous owner wirewheeled it as best he could given there wasn’t anything left in some spots back in ‘99, before the reproduction roof was being made. The he applied a DIY rhino liner to it. Looked cool but it made things so much worse. It absorbed moisture and was horrible getting off....

So B&B Automotive took my car in early December and couldn’t start working on it until mid April. She’s coming home this week!!! First the took some of the rhino liner off the roof to evaluate its condition. There were holes as bid as my fist.

[/url]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

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[/url]B4AB2223-7663-4382-A430-059CE5B44DC3 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

So a new roof was in order.

The rear window ledge was really bad along the bottom and half way up the sides.....

[/url]DDE18BDC-4671-4FEC-99EF-9ED1C370159E by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]2B0C32D1-CC2A-4050-A1DB-E618EE309CCD by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

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[/url]14E118FA-CDB2-4947-8ACC-29C12D9F762B by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

I also thought the package tray would need to be replaced but it will be covered and only had a few holes. Nothing a little rust inhibitor wouldn’t handle.

[/url]7F5A559D-5691-4837-B079-D1C173D2052D by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]72A1748D-4AA3-4569-9332-C879FAAAC7B2 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Stay tuned.... tare down continues to the roof next.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
The roof came off and the structure under was in great shape. There was only mild surface rust but it was superficial and not structural at all.

[/url]7F87776F-2D9A-4DC4-8EEC-EACC79E378A4 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

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[/url]1D1DE2B9-D8EA-425F-9486-FFC501E51124 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

The then 2/3 of the lower trunk pan came out and the rear window to trunk filler panel cam out...

[/url]CDDA6155-3224-49F3-9B31-581D7A4E1A89 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

The roof went in only a couple days after they took it off... They cleaned up the structure and epoxied it before the roof went back in...

[/url]2F24D95D-022A-4B61-A2A4-2A158142AFC9 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]866842C5-9F9F-441C-A7C8-2FEA3812DEA4 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]887C3E95-540E-4344-895D-7253C2D5C662 by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

Shortly after that the filler panel went in and the trunk panels too... The trunk pictures will come later as I don't have them yet... then they assembled the fenders and bumper, which they mounted incorrectly at first but have since fixed and they epoxy primed the whole thing... and the glass went in yesterday. New windshield up front as they broke the original taking it out for the roof...

[/url]34D19728-382C-45DA-9FA3-C284D366CDCB by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]primed by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]
 

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Discussion Starter #19
[/url]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]Untitled by paradox_69_666, on Flickr[/IMG]

I'm waiting on word for delivery and also asked them to fill in that gaping hole for the antenna mount.

Much more to come... We're basically all caught up to date at a high level. Later on I'll go deeper into the component specifics in the engine, suspension and others...
 

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Ah, all the "usual"rot spots. So glad reproduction parts are available! :thumbsup: Looks like they are doing so great work.

A few more matte black cars. The first pic is from a T-shirt company. I like it in that I was thinking it might be cool to go with a shiny black on the lower portions and a matte black on the upper portion separated by a brite thin custom strip, ala lime green outer layer, lemon yellow inner layer, & white center - sorta like the Judge colors.
 

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