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Hello, what do you guys think about a color change on a Judge? If I change it from the original Granada gold (on PHS docs) to Atoll blue (which is what I want to do) will it take away from the value of it or not hurt? In my opinion I would think it would sell better if it was a more desirable color, done correctly, over the original less desirable. But what I'm worried about most is the fact that it is a Judge, and deviation from original no matter the choice will devalue it. I don't plan on selling it when I'm done and won't be building a 100 point car, but still want to keep it true to form so to speak. No matter what I do I have to strip and paint it. It was painted Baja gold at some point.
 

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Its your car, do as you please. You don't plan on selling it, so go for it. I used to have a Pepper green '70 and if I ever had the funds to buy a '70 Judge, I would not have a problem re-creating it with a color change. If its not a 100% resto and your not going to enter it in judging contests.........enjoy.
 

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:cool: Jim is correct (she's your car and you should do as you want), but consider this point. Someday, someone is going to sell your GTO. The seller may not be you, but someone (your spouse, your kids) will sell her and they will want to get as much money out her sale as possible. She'll bring in the highest money if her paint matches the documents.
 

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My take... have been hardcore restoration service and parts supplier for decades, & have owned seven Judges, have dealt with many many friends and customers during the restoration of their Judges and occasionally the sales of same Judges.

If the '70 Granada Gold Judge is a NOM auto car, with an owner with no intention of getting it very close to correct under the hood, having it professionally painted Atoll blue, isn't going to hurt future sale pricing. There are different tiers of pricing and a wide range of skill and levels of restoration, one has to realize this. Atoll blue was very popular in '70 and Atoll blue with pink/orange/blue stripes have always been very appealing.

If the Granada Gold Judge is a factory 3spd or 4 spd car, or one of the very few RAIV automatics, I definitely wouldn't advise changing the color from Granada GOld. If it was an automatic RAIV Judge, imho, it deserves a fairly high level of restoration and detailing, and an owner w/o a strong restoration background may be in a better position selling or trading it for a RAIII Judge project that's much more complete and of an original color that they can live with.
 

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My .02 cents.....If you're in this for the money....you're in the wrong hobby. Restorations are (almost) never money makers unless you're restoring a car for someone else. If you're in it for YOU, and its about YOU and YOUR CAR, do what YOU want. See my sig.
 

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What pinion head said. Personally, being that it is a real Judge, I would not change the color. IMO, it will be detrimental to the end value of the car. But, it is your car.
 

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Thanks for the input! This is a full resto that I'm doing myself aside from the body work. This is my second one, and I still have my first. What I've been debating for a year now is exactly what you all are helping me with. I didn't give it a second thought when I color changed my '66. But, I am a purest and a stickler for correctness. There isn't a lot that will be #'s matching on this Judge, no thanks to the previous owners, but it is a 4spd w/power steering/manual drum car from Royal Pontiac. I look at it as a very fun investment. Nothing is forever, and there will come a day that It will need to sell. Granada gold isn't a bad color at all...I just don't like the lemon/lime decal colors!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
For what it's worth, the engine/trans are long gone, but I am looking hard to find the correct stuff. Also trying to research previous owners to no avail.
 

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For what it's worth, the engine/trans are long gone, but I am looking hard to find the correct stuff. Also trying to research previous owners to no avail.
Hmmmm, sorta changes things for me a bit. Here is the scenario at a car show and you have your car there. "Nice Judge" he says. "Original?" You say, "Its not the original color and its not the original engine and its not the original transmission, but it is an original Judge." He says, "Oh" and walks away.

Scenario #2 - "Nice Judge" he says "Original?". You say, "It is an original Judge that I restored to its original color and specs but the engine and 4-speed were long gone so I rebuilt another 400CI to factory Ram Air III specs and installed a correct Muncie 4-speed just as it would have come from the factory." He says, "Wow, great job, must be fast" as he pokes about to look at your car a little closer.

If you look to "restore" the car, then the original color is sort of an appeal/confirmation to the restoration of an original Judge that catches peoples eyes and the non-original engine/trans becomes less of a factor in its originalness - especially if you rebuild the donor driveline as factory. :thumbsup:
 

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bottom line is... having been a factory 4 spd Judge, you will most likely be leaving too much on the table, changing exterior color. On an auto '70 Judge, that is NOM, the change to atoll blue would not been a big hit in perceived value.

as far as original stamped engines go, I've examined too many partial VIN stampings on Pontiac blocks that the the last 2 or three digits were never struck very deep while the entire string was in the gangstamper. Also know of quite a few instances where fairly rare blocks were sourced that originally were installed in same asm plant, exact same time of year Pontiacs, and decades later are now in very close dated same orig assembly plant built GTO's, Judges, TransAms. The above average local yokel "GTO guy" that would make a snide comment at a local show, isn't smart enough to know the fine points, I wouldn't give him the time of day, most of them are near clueless when it comes to the overall picture of the hobby.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I guess I want to avoid that "shrugging of the shoulders" when someone asks me a question of it's originality and I don't have a good answer. In my opinion, a "good" Pontiac judge, would know as soon as he looks at the data tag if car is the original color or not. If your at a local any make show, there won't be anyone there that would judge it by correctness. I'm more of a cruise in guy. "Less" critics perhaps. I have a '67 WS HO block and #62 heads that would motivate it quite nicely, but, would it be correct? Not in my mind, so I have to find the right WS block with the #12 heads to make me feel good...that's just what I want. But, back to the color, I do agree more so now, that I need to keep the color correct too. The interior was sandlewood and somewhere along the line it was dyed dark brown. Although it was a very good dye job, and the color is ok with the Granada, I think It will have to go back to sandlewood. Thanks for all the input! I greatly appreciate it!
 

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And, you can opt not to install the stripes you don't care for, as a 'delete' option for a real sleeper look. That, or you could stick some other color Judge stripes on the car. Anything looks good with gold. I think you have made the right choice, though. It's just too cost prohibitive to change a color-change car back to original colors later on down the road, as values continue to rise on these cars.
 

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....

I am a purest and a stickler for correctness. ....
Sounds like you answered your own question especially if you are looking for the correct engine/trans etc etc.

My opinion, keep it as original as possible while you find the remaining parts you need. You have the fun of restoring her and you get to drive her and sell her one day allowing you to maximize your fun/efforts/return on investment.

Dan
 

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"...so I have to find the right WS block with the #12 heads to make me feel good...that's just what I want.

I assume you've already checked the usual sites, like PY and Ebay.

70 Pontiac GTO Trans Am Judge 4 Speed 400 RA RAM Air III 12 Cylinder Heads | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-GTO-JUDGE-RAM-AIR-3-TRANS-AM-12-CYLINDER-HEADS-400-HO-PONTIAC-4-SPEED-/390343305365?hash=item5ae2462895:m:mb--0U0X_onDyn47ZKDZXGA&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Ram-Air-400-V-8-Reman-Cylinder-Heads-/170144538232?hash=item279d679e78:g:tckAAMXQcWVREdXn&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-70-PONTIAC-GTO-JUDGE-TRANS-AM-FORMULA-WS-RAM-AIR-4-BOLT-MAIN-SHORT-BLOCK-/271814009955?hash=item3f4960a463:g:EtAAAOSw34FVDizk&vxp=mtr

Since it won't be original anyhow, how about a '69 WS block ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-1969-400-WS-GTO-Ram-Air-lll-4spd-Rebuilt-short-block-forged-pistons-/191763091961?hash=item2ca5f891f9:g:VvMAAOxyP4dTdRUo&vxp=mtr

Or, how about a casting number 481988 WS block, from '71, '72, or '73 ? They'll look correct from the front and sides. And when it's in the car, you can't hardly see the casting and date code numbers anyhow, and these blocks should be a lot cheaper and easier to find. Hey, it's just a thought. Might at least be a good sub til you can find something closer, for a more reasonable price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Engine-Decal-WS-69-70-GTO-400-Ram-Air-III-MT-OEM-NOS-/370781997565?hash=item56545449fd:g:WTgAAMXQAx9RXHkw&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PONTIAC-TRANS-AM-GTO-FIREBIRD-ENGINE-BLOCKS-/351274606000?hash=item51c9991db0:g:x7cAAOSwECZUqFgx&vxp=mtr

Most of the big name Pontiac engine builders have a supply of blocks. So, you might accidentally find a WS 481988 block, for a decent price, from one of 'em. Spotts sells 400 2-bolt blocks for $400.

http://www.spottsperformance.com/blocks.htm

Pinion head can probably locate your parts cheaper than anybody else. :)
 

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factory 4bolt 400 blocks are very rare and they have always been expensive, I have very little ability to find them at cheap prices and yes, have had nearly a dozen.

On any RamAir 400 type engine search, one of the worst things one can do for a car that is receiving a high point restoration, is buy an original coded block that doesn't correctly date the window of the build. It just makes no sense. Whenever many of us that do have such original coded blocks see such a want ad for such a block, or shortblock, we often don't respond. That is esp the case, if the buyer to be, is just looking for a block with a certain code, and is not also looking for a specific month and year built block. One really needs to post when the car was built and out of which assembly plant.
 
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