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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sorry if this has been posted or debated here before. It's an hour and a half video on 9/11 and the WTC. I think it originally aired on PBS, so some of you may have already seen it. It's new to me though, and I thought it was very interesting, fascinating and thought-provoking. I don't buy everything they say, but it does raise some interesting questions and makes you wonder if everything we've been told is true. The conspiracy theorists should have fun with it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4049590380102614532
 

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I've watched so many documentaries on 9-11 that blame the President, and or other high ranking officials for knowing about it beforehand and were involved in a conspiracy it makes me puke.

How anyone can think the President was involved in this for any kind of gain is NUTS. You cannot stop everyone from doing harm to anyone all the time. Our laws made it lax for this to have happened. Bush is hated by so many people they blame him for every damn thing.

Because of 9-11 laws have been enacted, and security has been enhanced yet there are organizations like the the ACLU that is fighting against it so as to let potential harmful people in here to carry this out again.

I really get sick of the Left Wing fanatics blaming our government for knowing all about this a head of time and letting it happen.

I don't believe a conspiracy ever existed or anyone knew those bastards were going to fly those planes into history before it happened.

People are looking for someone to blame. To think our government purposely allowed this to happen and watch so many die to satisfy an agenda is plain crazy.

Our government maybe to blame for our vulnerability due to laws, but not for orchestrating or conspiring to kill us.

Want to blame someone.... Blame organizations like the ACLU for fighting to let illegals in with Open Borders, and fighting our lawmakers on security issues. Maybe they should be accused of conspiring to kill us to push their agendas.

It all turns my guts

I turn it all off.



 

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Lol he didn't say he believed it, nor did he slander the government at all. He just said it was interesting and wanted to know what everyone thought.

And while I do agree that people are just looking for someone to blame, the video does present a hell of an arguement if the videos weren't edited in any way.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Lol he didn't say he believed it, nor did he slander the government at all. He just said it was interesting and wanted to know what everyone thought.

And while I do agree that people are just looking for someone to blame, the video does present a hell of an arguement if the videos weren't edited in any way.
Thanks. I didn't mean it to sound like I supported it or believed everything they said because I don't. I did find it very interesting though, and there is some factual truth mixed in with their theories, along with some unusual coincidences and unexplaineds. It makes you think, which was the point. I think I was wrong on one point, the guy introducing the video says it'snever been on tv. For some reason I thought I read where it was on PBS.

Now where's my DVD of Mel Gibson's Conspiracy Theory? Ah yes, right next to my copy of Fahrenheit 911. :rofl: :willy:
 

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Lol he didn't say he believed it, nor did he slander the government at all. He just said it was interesting and wanted to know what everyone thought.

And while I do agree that people are just looking for someone to blame, the video does present a hell of an arguement if the videos weren't edited in any way.

I know..... I am not busting on him sorry Keg if ya thought so, I am not.... I am busing on the theories. I did not view it and I don't plan to. I seen enough of them to know the Michael Moore's will do what they can to discredit the current government to make political points.

Blaming Bush for what Bin Laden did is like Blaming FDR for the attack on Pearl Harbor. The hatred for our government runs so deep, the far left accuses our President of conspiring to kill us, or know about it. Pathetic.

Speaking of Pearl Harbor, Jap planes were seen on radar and dismissed as our own planes returning to port. To know airliners were going to slam towers and cause carnage and let it happen because of a conspiracy is complete lunacy.

A mad man perpetrated this and many want the focus to be on our leadership, not the real villains. I think it's sick. I won't believe it nor will I fall for their accusations of our leadership involved in it.
 

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Speaking of Pearl Harbor, Jap planes were seen on radar and dismissed as our own planes returning to port. To know airliners were going to slam towers and cause carnage and let it happen because of a conspiracy is complete lunacy.


To be fair, the mistake of planes comming back to port and low flying planes in the heart of New York are two completley different things.
But you are right, people blame our government (mainly the president) for much too many things.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

I know..... I am not busting on him sorry Keg if ya thought so, I am not.... I am busing on the theories. I did not view it and I don't plan to. I seen enough of them to know the Michael Moore's will do what they can to discredit the current government to make political points.

Blaming Bush for what Bin Laden did is like Blaming FDR for the attack on Pearl Harbor. The hatred for our government runs so deep, the far left accuses our President of conspiring to kill us, or know about it. Pathetic.

Speaking of Pearl Harbor, Jap planes were seen on radar and dismissed as our own planes returning to port. To know airliners were going to slam towers and cause carnage and let it happen because of a conspiracy is complete lunacy.

A mad man perpetrated this and many want the focus to be on our leadership, not the real villains. I think it's sick. I won't believe it nor will I fall for their accusations of our leadership involved in it.

No offense meant, none taken. I must be really bored today, because I just watched it again. If nothing else, it beats the housework my wife told me to do today. :D
First, let me be clear that I'm not defending the film. My impression is that it doesn't really try to blame Bush or any one particular person, group, or the Government per se. They theorize that there were several people or groups that could have been involved or could have gained from it. Much of it is of a scientific nature arguing that the towers couldn't have collapsed due to the fires and the resulting weakening of the the steel structure the way it is said to have happened. I don't believe their theories either, but I thought it was an interesting film nonetheless.
 

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Speaking of Pearl Harbor, Jap planes were seen on radar and dismissed as our own planes returning to port. To know airliners were going to slam towers and cause carnage and let it happen because of a conspiracy is complete lunacy.


To be fair, the mistake of planes comming back to port and low flying planes in the heart of New York are two completley different things.
But you are right, people blame our government (mainly the president) for much too many things.

Yes and NO... dismissing those planes as ours on radar ,,,, and doing nothing....
Knowing those planes were gonna hit the towers and ..doing nothing. IF it was a conspiracy.

Same results.... if you relate the two... both somewhat avoidable or not as bad as it was had the Jap planes been intercepted, and had the airliners been intercepted.

Congress wasn't blamed for the JAP attack..... many theories about 9-11 blame Congress for conspiracies.

Shows you how far left we've come.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Let me ask a serious question... I've never been one to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, in fact I'm pretty cynical and skeptical when it comes to things like that. But the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, United flight 93, do you think it was really intentionally crashed by either the passengers or the hijackers or do you think it was shot down? After two planes hit the WTC and the 3rd hit the Pentagon, I think it's a fair assumption to say that the 4th plane was headed to Washington DC with a bullseye on the White House or the Capitol building.

In the hours and days after 9/11, it was widely reported that flight 93 had left a debris trail for several miles before it crashed. Then all that talk suddenly just disappeared. Then in a press conference a couple years later, Rumsfeld was talking about the threat of terrorism and the events of 9/11 and he said "when we shot down Flight 93..." I was watching CNN that day and I saw him say it on live TV, we even talked about it at work for a couple days. I figured a statement like that would cause one hell of an uproar, but later he quietly issued a statement saying "he misspoke" and the whole thing was swept under the rug rather quickly. Did he actually 'misspeak' or did he accidentally tell the truth? After 9/11 we as a nation were hurt, bruised, and angry as hell, and we needed heroes. I'm not saying I think it was shot down, but could or would the American people tolerate it if they were told the plane was shot down to keep it from reaching the White House? Things that make you go hmmm....
 

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Let me ask a serious question... I've never been one to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, in fact I'm pretty cynical and skeptical when it comes to things like that. But the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, United flight 93, do you think it was really intentionally crashed by either the passengers or the hijackers or do you think it was shot down? After two planes hit the WTC and the 3rd hit the Pentagon, I think it's a fair assumption to say that the 4th plane was headed to Washington DC with a bullseye on the White House or the Capitol building.

In the hours and days after 9/11, it was widely reported that flight 93 had left a debris trail for several miles before it crashed. Then all that talk suddenly just disappeared. Then in a press conference a couple years later, Rumsfeld was talking about the threat of terrorism and the events of 9/11 and he said "when we shot down Flight 93..." I was watching CNN that day and I saw him say it on live TV, we even talked about it at work for a couple days. I figured a statement like that would cause one hell of an uproar, but later he quietly issued a statement saying "he misspoke" and the whole thing was swept under the rug rather quickly. Did he actually 'misspeak' or did he accidentally tell the truth? After 9/11 we as a nation were hurt, bruised, and angry as hell, and we needed heroes. I'm not saying I think it was shot down, but could or would the American people tolerate it if they were told the plane was shot down to keep it from reaching the White House? Things that make you go hmmm....
Regarding flight 93.... My wife and I drove out to visit the site this past summer. We talked to a lady who is a moderator at the memorial. As described by workers who were working next door to the crash. We were told the plane came in upside down kind of horizontally but still on a 45 degree angle. It was traveling if I remember correctly 200 MPH as it hit the ground. It almost hit a (I think) propane tank. The plane narrowly missed it which we were told was like 20 ft off the ground. There were no reports of other aircraft in the area and the plane was intact when it hit the ground. There were witnesses.

This was told to us. When looking at the site you cannot get near the crash site. The memorial is like 500 yards from the crash site. The hole was filled in and there is a fence around the site. There is another smaller memorial inside the fenced in area that the families set up. You cannot get to it. I had binoculars that are pretty powerful and I could see inside the fenced in area. They have the grounds cleaned up and you cannot tell a crash happened. As I said witnesses said the plane was intact as I described. Was not on fire either.

Now if there was a conspiracy that the plane was shot down, then there would have been a lot of paying off the witnesses that saw the plane crash. I'd like to see Michael Moore pull that off.

As we were described the final moments.. and we did read the entire log of what was said on board to the loved ones...This log showed every single word spoken and the time it was spoken. It has all the pictures of everyone on that plane there as well. Most of what you read in the papers did not have the entire log. At the memorial site the entire log is there for everyone to read.

As we read it, and as it was told to us by the moderator there, it brings tears to your eyes. You cannot help but be overwhelmed as you look at the site and hold in your hands the transcript. I don't care how stone cold hearted a person is.... this site will bring you to tears.

We visited ground zero 3 times..... but the visit to Shanksville PA where flight 93 went down makes you cry. Probably because you can hold in your hands the transcript and see the pictures. It hit us deeper than ground zero. Ground zero makes ya weep too but its too commercialized now there. Shanksville is out in the middle of nowhere with no commercializing of it like in NY. It's a very solemn place with dead quiet. A place you can sit and look and pay your respects without someone shoving a brochure in your face trying to make money.

I think the passengers really did thwart those bastards... If someone went through the trouble to forge the transcripts I read and to make it look like anything else, they can rot in hell. Those people knew they were gonna die, and they took the fight to those MFers.


 

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Discussion Starter #11
Good post, Judge. Like I said I'm not saying I think it was shot down, just wondering what others think.
 

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The sad part of all of it is that we will never know exactly what happened nor the truth of it all. All we know is what we hear from the media and what we can see with our own eyes after the tragedy already occurred.
 

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We know Bin Laden admitted to orchestrating it, planning it, and had videos of the guys he met with beforehand discussing it.

A time line was established. The suicide bombers left their footprints for investigators to find.... ETC ETC ETC

So people blame the government on a conspiracy...... Bush met with Bin Laden beforehand to mastermind the whole thing. All the videos shown with the bombers with Bin Landen were edited so no one from our government was seen with them in the various caves, and rock forts. I would tend to think in the 5 years since, someone from Bin Ladens club would have leaked evidence someone from our side was involved. They have been doing a great job dividing our leadership by doing nothing. I think they would provide evidence our government was involved to add to the laughs they are enjoying now.
They have been sitting back watching and laughing at the Far Left make fools of themselves over this.

Problem is TOO many people are listening to the Michael Moores of the country and would rather believe left wing extremists because they have theories designed to cause distention among us, and question the character of the administration. People like him live to divide people. They make documentaries designed to insult, damage, and divide the country in a time when everyone should be focused on our security, and our future, and come together to defeat what is headed to our streets. NOBODY here has had an experience of war on our own soil.... It's a commin.... it's headed right at us, and what is being done about it... FINGER POINTING. We will experience what happened in Lebanon in our own cities. It's in the works now.

We are going to lose this "war." Why? Because it follows the same path as Vietnam. The country was at war with each other instead of communism, which was threatening us. Radical Islam is at war with us now. What are we doing? Watching the Demos, and Republicans fight each other. Meanwhile our interests in the Mid East are crumbling.

Hanoi Jane was vilified by the entire country for showing sympathy for Charlie..She still is hated by the Viet Vets for this. The Michael Moores are far worse than she was and they are hailed as heroes by the far left. This is where we have come.

WWII had the whole country united. Everyone pulled together and fought for the same cause. Today our leadership is too busy fighting each other.

What we have now are a bunch inept congress people playing house, and get up everyday looking to add to the fight between themselves.

We all are watching people who have no clue what to do next tearing each other apart on T.V. talk shows, and blaming each other instead of coming together to fix what has happened.

Meanwhile our enemy is getting stronger. Hezbollah is setting up shop in the states and we have organizations protecting their rights to do so.

We are in serious deep $hit here, and it is plain to see. But yet we have people who follow Far Left ideology that has divide everyone. People believe the Michael Moores theories over fact. People are living on theory instead of fact.

We have an enemy that admitted to killing thousands.... yet because of morons who want to blame our own people are WANTING to believe we killed our own.

I didn't read about FDR and our government conspiring to bomb Pearl Harbor, but if Michael Moore was making documentaries then, and had we had bunch of the idiots on the far left back then, like we have now, then FDR would have been accused of it. We were a smarter country then. Look at us know.

We are not at war with Radical Islam.. we are at war with ourselves. And we are going to kill ourselves over this. Bush is hated more than Saddam was. Bush is hated more than Bin Laden is....... Bush screwed things up bad... but to believe he knew of a conspiracy to kill his own? I don't wanna hear it.
 

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I think the south park writers hit it on the head. It was actually the bush administration that orchestrated the attacks and wanted people to believe in a conspiracy that the american government was SO MESSED UP that they attack their own people, that way any perspective attackers will believe that america was so rediculously insane that it would be unrealistic to attack.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
There always have been and always will be these fringe groups that think there is a conspiracy behind everything and blame the President or the Government for whatever goes wrong. Tearing down the President and/or Government has become our national pastime. Partisan politics has become the norm, and politicians of BOTH parties are too busy criticizing the other party and feathering their own nests to do what needs to be done for our country.
 

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I think most get a kick out South Park. Only lame, uneducated, low IQ people actually believe what is written. It's meant to entertain, not educate. Sad thing is there are people out there who believe it. It shows the lack of intelligence of the people who do believe it, and go out and apply it to their far left agenda.
Cartoons that are politically motivated meant to smear, cater to the MTV audience mentality who sit there mesmerized in a chair watching videos who most lack the intellectually to comprehend real life.

Anyone see the news of the Far Left rally in Washington D.C.? People spitting on some of our troops that were there. Quite a few actors were there touting their political hatred for our troops, and leaders. Anyone see how well educated Tim Robbins is? He was asked a question and he told the guy... your young maybe you should enlist. Guess who is in the center of it all.... Jane Fonda. She's at it again. When Sean Penn was asked if he thought it was ok for Iran to get nukes he said, yes, we have them, they should have them too. DUHHHHHHHHH.... This is an example of our Far Left actors who many listen too, and follow.

That rally was right out of the Vietnam anti establishment handbook. Jane Fonda is handing them out. Spitting on some of the troops????? I think the Tim Robbins, and Jane Fondas of Hollywood should be airlifted to Baghdad and placed there. But if they were, they'd take up with Iran.

Maybe Far Left Hollywood is in a conspiracy to kill our own so they can blame our government to they can go to rallys and promote hatred.

Jane Fonda and her little army of Hollywood Far Left fanatics are spreading poison designed to weaken us. People that listen to them can blame themselves then Hezbollah comes to their door to kill their family and shove the Koran in their face. They are the real conspirators.
 

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We know Bin Laden admitted to orchestrating it, planning it, and had videos of the guys he met with beforehand discussing it.

A time line was established. The suicide bombers left their footprints for investigators to find.... ETC ETC ETC

So people blame the government on a conspiracy...... Bush met with Bin Laden beforehand to mastermind the whole thing. All the videos shown with the bombers with Bin Landen were edited so no one from our government was seen with them in the various caves, and rock forts. I would tend to think in the 5 years since, someone from Bin Ladens club would have leaked evidence someone from our side was involved. They have been doing a great job dividing our leadership by doing nothing. I think they would provide evidence our government was involved to add to the laughs they are enjoying now.
They have been sitting back watching and laughing at the Far Left make fools of themselves over this.

Problem is TOO many people are listening to the Michael Moores of the country and would rather believe left wing extremists because they have theories designed to cause distention among us, and question the character of the administration. People like him live to divide people. They make documentaries designed to insult, damage, and divide the country in a time when everyone should be focused on our security, and our future, and come together to defeat what is headed to our streets. NOBODY here has had an experience of war on our own soil.... It's a commin.... it's headed right at us, and what is being done about it... FINGER POINTING. We will experience what happened in Lebanon in our own cities. It's in the works now.

We are going to lose this "war." Why? Because it follows the same path as Vietnam. The country was at war with each other instead of communism, which was threatening us. Radical Islam is at war with us now. What are we doing? Watching the Demos, and Republicans fight each other. Meanwhile our interests in the Mid East are crumbling.

Hanoi Jane was vilified by the entire country for showing sympathy for Charlie..She still is hated by the Viet Vets for this. The Michael Moores are far worse than she was and they are hailed as heroes by the far left. This is where we have come.

WWII had the whole country united. Everyone pulled together and fought for the same cause. Today our leadership is too busy fighting each other.

What we have now are a bunch inept congress people playing house, and get up everyday looking to add to the fight between themselves.

We all are watching people who have no clue what to do next tearing each other apart on T.V. talk shows, and blaming each other instead of coming together to fix what has happened.

Meanwhile our enemy is getting stronger. Hezbollah is setting up shop in the states and we have organizations protecting their rights to do so.

We are in serious deep $hit here, and it is plain to see. But yet we have people who follow Far Left ideology that has divide everyone. People believe the Michael Moores theories over fact. People are living on theory instead of fact.

We have an enemy that admitted to killing thousands.... yet because of morons who want to blame our own people are WANTING to believe we killed our own.

I didn't read about FDR and our government conspiring to bomb Pearl Harbor, but if Michael Moore was making documentaries then, and had we had bunch of the idiots on the far left back then, like we have now, then FDR would have been accused of it. We were a smarter country then. Look at us know.

We are not at war with Radical Islam.. we are at war with ourselves. And we are going to kill ourselves over this. Bush is hated more than Saddam was. Bush is hated more than Bin Laden is....... Bush screwed things up bad... but to believe he knew of a conspiracy to kill his own? I don't wanna hear it.

I'm not quite sure if this essay was in reference to my comment, but I was talking from my own perspective. Also that statement was meant towards the incident concerning Flight 93 and what exaclty happened before the plane crashed. I don't believe the government orchestrated the 9/11 attack at all. Did they possibly aid the current villains sometime in the past for their own ambition at that time?? Possibly, in a conspiracy theory possibly. I do believe that Bush did a piss poor job handling the situation and believe he used it for some personal gain. He lead the country into invading a country that had no real connection to 9/11. In other words......everything is just messed up and America should do what it needs to do in order to protect itself and everyone that lives here.
 

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I'm not quite sure if this essay was in reference to my comment, but I was talking from my own perspective. Also that statement was meant towards the incident concerning Flight 93 and what exaclty happened before the plane crashed. I don't believe the government orchestrated the 9/11 attack at all. Did they possibly aid the current villains sometime in the past for their own ambition at that time?? Possibly, in a conspiracy theory possibly. I do believe that Bush did a piss poor job handling the situation and believe he used it for some personal gain. He lead the country into invading a country that had no real connection to 9/11. In other words......everything is just messed up and America should do what it needs to do in order to protect itself and everyone that lives here.
Naaa was not in reference to your post per say. It was directed at the overall view many think.

Many feel the government knew something may have been in the works. I can believe that. But, exactly what? I think if they knew it was hijacking they would have thwarted it, not given them the green light to do so as so many suggest.

Because the government may have known something was going down but not sure what...... what is it they should do? Stop all mass transit, shut down all airports, close all businesses, everyone stay indoors, etc?

Mass hysteria is part of the terror.

Bush really screwed up. We don't need the Left Wing to keep reminding everyone of it and shoving down our throats. They want to cut and run. If we do, Iran will take Iraq over. The N. Vietnamese murdered I think 10K of their own after we pulled out of there. Iraq will be no different. Radical Islam would then be even closer to world domination.

If you look at the news you can see the great divide going on here.. We are terrorizing ourselves as the real terrorists plot their Armageddon on us. We are doing the work of those bastards and many are too wrapped up in persecuting
our protectors than the real enemy.
 
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