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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I almost didn't buy my 67 because of the auto, but since the car was mass produced, without any rare options, I don't see converting it to a 4 Speed as likely to hurt it's value.

I love Muncie M20's, most people don't. Everyone says that the Tremec conversions are the way to go, but the price deters them. I've been searching for months, and I'm not seeing the Muncie being any cheaper than the TKO stuff.

Where are these "cheap" Muncies that everyone is seeing?

Also... I own a welding shop and I've installed a few of the TKO conversions for Chevelle customers. They completely change the floor and then I wouldn't be able use the GTO console. That would be a deal breaker for me. I'd want the car to be like a 67 GTO, with console.

I've read the conversion threads and visited the sites... no one seems to mention the console and everyone says that the Muncies are much cheaper. I'm looking to get this ball rolling!

Of course, anyone looking for a new, numbers correct, TH400, console, and Hurst HH, or knows where to find a 4 speed parts car, let me know!
 

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1967 Lemans 1967 GTO parts car
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I have been kicking around installing a T56. The car I checked out last spring had a T56 on the floor, no console. Not the best adaptation to me. I have seen pictures of some with consoles I dont know if they used the automatic console or fabricated one. My console has a wood grain top so if the stick comes up in centered. I can adjust the hole and put new wood grain on top. I have a vinyl covered console in my mercury. It is factory but not a good look to me.
 

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Some years ago, one of my customers brought me a Keisler 5-speed od to install in his factory 4-speed, console car. What an abortion! We would have had to swiss cheese the floor so bad that the console wouldn't have worked. I got him a Richmond 5-speed od and only had to do minor surgery to make it work. He had a used, junk console modified to clear the shifter and it looked great.
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have been kicking around installing a T56. The car I checked out last spring had a T56 on the floor, no console. Not the best adaptation to me. I have seen pictures of some with consoles I dont know if they used the automatic console or fabricated one. My console has a wood grain top so if the stick comes up in centered. I can adjust the hole and put new wood grain on top. I have a vinyl covered console in my mercury. It is factory but not a good look to me.
I don't see how a factory auto console could work. they're so far off. Plus, I'm brave enough to chop a GTO floor, but not brave enough to chop an original Hurst console!
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Some years ago, one of my customers brought me a Keisler 5-speed od to install in his factory 4-speed, console car. What an abortion! We would have had to swiss cheese the floor so bad that the console wouldn't have worked. I got him a Richmond 5-speed od and only had to do minor surgery to make it work. He had a used, junk console modified to clear the shifter and it looked great.
Wow... So if it's that hard to adapt a 4 speed console to a 5 speed, you can imagine what it'll be like, converting a TH400 auto to one.
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My Chevelle customer, just sent me a pic of his completed car. It has the OEM TH400 console, with the Tremec 5 speed! I was shocked. The Tremec shifter comes straight up, so I guess I won't need a console? I can just use the auto console?
140091
 

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My Chevelle customer, just sent me a pic of his completed car. It has the OEM TH400 console, with the Tremec 5 speed! I was shocked. The Tremec shifter comes straight up, so I guess I won't need a console? I can just use the auto console? View attachment 140091
Wow. I'm impressed how good that actually looks. Does that work out so well because the shifter is not offset toward driver's side like it was with original four speed consoles? If that's the case, the original four speed console probably would not work for you anyhow.
 

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1967 Lemans 1967 GTO parts car
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Finding it hard to believe! Seems like our shifters are much further back than on that Chevelle. If it does work, then I'll be thrilled!
I think they are. The T56 I saw the shifter was even with the front of the buckets. That is in the neighborhood of where my automatic shifter is.
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I think they are. The T56 I saw the shifter was even with the front of the buckets. That is in the neighborhood of where my automatic shifter is.
Well, all... ALLLLLL of my initial research, stated that the Tremec conversion cost two times what the Muncie cost. That is not my experience at all. Everyone wants big money for the Muncies. As much as the Tremecs.

So, if I have to spend the same amount, plus cut the floor anyway, then the Tremec is much cheaper. I'll save $800 - $1000 on the console and doghouse, plus I'll get over drive!
 

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Well, all... ALLLLLL of my initial research, stated that the Tremec conversion cost two times what the Muncie cost. That is not my experience at all. Everyone wants big money for the Muncies. As much as the Tremecs.

So, if I have to spend the same amount, plus cut the floor anyway, then the Tremec is much cheaper. I'll save $800 - $1000 on the console and doghouse, plus I'll get over drive!
The Tremec is not inexpensive when you have to consider all the parts needed. There are options on the shifter/shifter locations if you do a web search. This is another additional cost. You will need to shorten, or buy, your driveshaft - another additional cost. You may want to purchase another gear set DEPENDING on the final OD ratio and tire height. I got the TKO-600 .64 as it seemed sensless to only drop the OD .82. So you want to calculate for the OD, ie RPM/MPH speed at 70 MPH (which is the speed I chose). Then you have to decide your tire height as that affects RPM/Road speed. That all said, I went with 3.89 gearing in my 9" which should put me about 2,000 RPM's @ 70 MPH with a 30" tall tire.

Using an online calculator, it appears with 3.55's, .64 OD, 27" tire height that you should see 2,000 RPM's @ 70 MPH. So you can see how your set-up is basically the same RPM/MPH but our gearing and tire sizes are different. Just plug in the numbers into the boxes and they will pull up.


With the TKO, you will most likely have to cut/modify the trans tunnel. I believe you can use your trans crossmember, but will have to move it back and possibly drill new holes in the frame - IF you don't buy an aftermarket crossmember.

You will also want to ensure that the trans is aligned with the flywheel by using a dial indicator or alignment tool from Browell.


The TKO is not designed to shift at high RPM's due to the way the synchro's work. I was told you might get 6,000 RPM's, but above that the trans won't shift until the RPM's come back down. You can upgrade to cure this and these upgrades are available from the aftermarket suppliers who sell them, but, more money. For me, not an issue as I don't see my 455 spinning high enough RPM's to be a problem.

HOWEVER, there is a new Tremec design which has just come out that eliminates a few issues. You can read more about it here:


So in my opinion, a swap to the 5-speed OD may run you $4,500 - $5,500 dollars for a complete conversion to include flywheel, bell, clutch set-up, pedals & linkages, and driveline mods to fit.

A 2,500 "tight" stall converter may cost $350.00 and your labor.
 

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1967 Lemans 1967 GTO parts car
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I dont know about ARMY but that is a number I can live with.. I have spent more having a trans rebuilt for my truck (Well they ended up rebuilding the transfer case and rearend too. And only to got two more years out of it. For my car I have TH400 and a two speed that both have issues. So I am sinking good money no matter what.
I will buy a beater truck and drive it for 10 years and sink the money of a new truck on my 67. Money well spent in my book.
Why a 6spd? Have you ever been to Kansas? The faster its in your rear view the better. Driving across the plains is mind numbing.
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The Tremec is not inexpensive when you have to consider all the parts needed. There are options on the shifter/shifter locations if you do a web search. This is another additional cost. You will need to shorten, or buy, your driveshaft - another additional cost. You may want to purchase another gear set DEPENDING on the final OD ratio and tire height. I got the TKO-600 .64 as it seemed sensless to only drop the OD .82. So you want to calculate for the OD, ie RPM/MPH speed at 70 MPH (which is the speed I chose). Then you have to decide your tire height as that affects RPM/Road speed. That all said, I went with 3.89 gearing in my 9" which should put me about 2,000 RPM's @ 70 MPH with a 30" tall tire.

Using an online calculator, it appears with 3.55's, .64 OD, 27" tire height that you should see 2,000 RPM's @ 70 MPH. So you can see how your set-up is basically the same RPM/MPH but our gearing and tire sizes are different. Just plug in the numbers into the boxes and they will pull up.


With the TKO, you will most likely have to cut/modify the trans tunnel. I believe you can use your trans crossmember, but will have to move it back and possibly drill new holes in the frame - IF you don't buy an aftermarket crossmember.

You will also want to ensure that the trans is aligned with the flywheel by using a dial indicator or alignment tool from Browell.


The TKO is not designed to shift at high RPM's due to the way the synchro's work. I was told you might get 6,000 RPM's, but above that the trans won't shift until the RPM's come back down. You can upgrade to cure this and these upgrades are available from the aftermarket suppliers who sell them, but, more money. For me, not an issue as I don't see my 455 spinning high enough RPM's to be a problem.

HOWEVER, there is a new Tremec design which has just come out that eliminates a few issues. You can read more about it here:


So in my opinion, a swap to the 5-speed OD may run you $4,500 - $5,500 dollars for a complete conversion to include flywheel, bell, clutch set-up, pedals & linkages, and driveline mods to fit.

A 2,500 "tight" stall converter may cost $350.00 and your labor.
Thanks Jim. I don't know if you read, but I already installed a couple of TH400/ TKO conversions, for Chevelle owners at my shop. That's how I found out about them. However, I still wanted a Muncie, so I started pricing it all out. I can barely find a rebuilt Muncie, for anything less than $2k, plus clutch, bell housing, Z bar, doghouse, drive shaft, and 4 speed 67 console, I still see it coming up at over $4k. I'd need most of the same parts, regardless of the trans, and it seems like the "Swap" companies have all inclusive packages, which have come way down in price.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm finding the pricing to be a real close tie. The exception would be that if I could ever find a 4 speed, A-body, donor car, or a Muncie which was not being sold on ebay by Billy the Kid, then I could easily save as much as $2k with the Muncie.
 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I dont know about ARMY but that is a number I can live with.. I have spent more having a trans rebuilt for my truck (Well they ended up rebuilding the transfer case and rearend too. And only to got two more years out of it. For my car I have TH400 and a two speed that both have issues. So I am sinking good money no matter what.
I will buy a beater truck and drive it for 10 years and sink the money of a new truck on my 67. Money well spent in my book.
Why a 6spd? Have you ever been to Kansas? The faster its in your rear view the better. Driving across the plains is mind numbing.
My cousins just bought 1000 acres in Kansas, for $500. I thought they got a deal, but maybe not!
 

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My cousins just bought 1000 acres in Kansas, for $500. I thought they got a deal, but maybe not!
I have been working in a cave in Missouri for 15 years and Kansas is a shock to my system when you drive through and can see forever in every direction. Its like being out in the ocean. Can't really sneak up on any one out there. There are a few creeks that run through it pretty washed out deep enough to hide horse riders. Thats what Jessy James used to back in the day
 

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Thanks Jim. I don't know if you read, but I already installed a couple of TH400/ TKO conversions, for Chevelle owners at my shop. That's how I found out about them. However, I still wanted a Muncie, so I started pricing it all out. I can barely find a rebuilt Muncie, for anything less than $2k, plus clutch, bell housing, Z bar, doghouse, drive shaft, and 4 speed 67 console, I still see it coming up at over $4k. I'd need most of the same parts, regardless of the trans, and it seems like the "Swap" companies have all inclusive packages, which have come way down in price.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm finding the pricing to be a real close tie. The exception would be that if I could ever find a 4 speed, A-body, donor car, or a Muncie which was not being sold on ebay by Billy the Kid, then I could easily save as much as $2k with the Muncie.
I am seeing rebuilt for $1,350 with warranty. So much less than 2K.

 

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1967 400/400
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I am seeing rebuilt for $1,350 with warranty. So much less than 2K.

That does look like a competitive price, and the seller seems legit, too. Most of the threads that I initially saw, were pricing Tremecs higher and Muncies lower... under $800. Those days seem over. I wonder what it would cost to ship a Muncie from the west to the east?

Hard to believe that there's not an A body donor out there in a junk yard somewhere... but I guess I'm not the first guy to have this idea.
 

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I have been reading up on the TKX manual trans and they claim no modifications are need to the tunnel and have 3 different shift positions and will bolt up to a GM bell housing without an adapter. I am looking to turn my 69 Nova into a five speed. A little off topic but I am also looking at Gear Vendor bolt on overdrive unit that lets you split all your gears or just run it as an overdrive only, but that unit is 3k on its own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I have been reading up on the TKX manual trans and they claim no modifications are need to the tunnel and have 3 different shift positions and will bolt up to a GM bell housing without an adapter. I am looking to turn my 69 Nova into a five speed. A little off topic but I am also looking at Gear Vendor bolt on overdrive unit that lets you split all your gears or just run it as an overdrive only, but that unit is 3k on its own.
I have no problem spending money for value. I just don't like automatic cars. I don't mind welding in a new tunnel... Not that I'm in a hurry to do it, but I'm a welder and I've already done two Chevelles, so it's just a day of work, and 90% of that is paint.

The consistent dilemma here is the console. I gotta have a walnut console in the 67. It's just too iconic to ditch. A muncie cannot use the Hurst auto console, because the shifter is offset. The TKO is centered, so "it has been said" that the Hurst auto console will work with it. If so, then TKO it is! Honestly, I do digital templating, so making a new console for the Muncie would also be easy, but I'm finding the TKO to be the same price as the Muncies, now.

Pro's of the TKO are that companies sell it as an all inclusive package, and you get over drive. So even if it's another $1000 it's just worth it. Plus, my rebuilt TH400 would likely bring a nice penny
 
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