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Discussion Starter #1
I was going to post this on the 9/11 string but decided that should be for 9/11 conspiracy theories that I think are based more on fiction, imagination, and political views… Although, sometimes conspiracies turn out to be true…

Just a single question… It should be a simple question with a simple answer… but somehow it’s not all that simple…

How has America benefited from occupying Iraq?

It’s an important question for many reasons… And it really goes to the root of why Americans are losing resolve in this war…

Almost 4 years into it, America is weighing the benefits with the costs… This will ultimately drive the decision whether we stay or go…
 

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When I was in 3rd grade, a kid pushed me into a wall. I jumped up and punched him right in the nose. I got sent home from school. You know what my dad said? "If you don't punch someone in the nose every once in a while you are going to get pushed around alot more".
 

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America has not occupied Iraq. We have liberated it from a tyranical dictator. How that ultimately benefits the US is of some debate for sure.

Either one adheres to the notion that Iraq was a stabilizing/base for terrorism or one does not. History will tell, but I am of the opinion that if Democracy vs Theocracy can take a rehold of the middle east, the US and the entire world will benefit, regardless of the opinion on terrorism. Was our current course of action the best one? Very debatable, Im not convinced it was, but at the time and given the sanctions by the UN, I don't where else we could have started.

Islamic Fascist want the Zionists killed, folowed by (or in conjuction with) the death of the capitalist west (US) It is a very compelling threat now that they (terrorists) have access to nukes. Gives me the creeps, must not be allowed to escalate.

I think what we need to do is offer a timeline for the new Iraqi government to restablish order there with our help. Without progress, we have no exit, and this sucketh.

Don't doubt for one second the resolve of the Islamic Fundamentalists to do us in.

When one is cornered by coiled hissing rattler, no negotiations or debate will save you. The snake must be dealt with.
 

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I agree we are not occupying Iraq, we liberated it.

The way things have gone so far.. other than removing Saddam not much. What good will happen if all goes to plan, A LOT.

Personally I don't see it happening. We are going to lose this as I stated in a previous post.

Iraqnam
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I guess it might of sounded like a loaded question but it really isn’t…

If we are going to win this thing we need to get our feet on solid ground and make the point that makes the sacrifice worth it…

Iraq has been bombed back a good 70 years… all the educated people are leaving to neighboring countries leaving the tribal war mongers to fight it out…

Just lay it all out on the table… Do we continue staying the course? Do we get out?

It’s one or the other…

BTW, by every definition of the word we are occupiers in Iraq…
 

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BTW, by every definition of the word we are occupiers in Iraq…
If you want to get technical..... we are occupying Iraq because we are there. Just as we were in France, Italy, Germany etc during WWII. Once they were liberated we DEoccupied those places. Just like we will in Iraq unless we lose.
And if we do, you will see the Iranian flag there and they will be the occupiers.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Actually Judge, no...

We are militarily controlling Iraq… In France, there wasn’t armed patrols of US soldiers conducting military operations in civilian neighborhoods four years after their liberation… We weren’t propping-up a government saying, when they stand-up we will stand down. France was in control of their own country… The current government of Iraq is not…

Iraq would be in full blown civil war if we weren’t militarily in control…

If I am wrong maybe you can describe what an occupation is…
 

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Yeah, occupation isn't a bad word in and of itself. I don't know why we, as Americans, feel the need to be so ashamed of our self defense measures. I don't think Iraq is worse off now than it was before we "occupied" it, and outside of Bush hater's and news pundits, Iraqis tend to agree with that statement (except for the 1-5% that benefited from the dictator). Sure, there will be plenty of casualties on both sides for a long time to come, but since when did we get so disillusioned as to think we could fight a war and not have that, soldiers and civilians alike.

There will be growing pains with this conflict as there are with all wars, and we're either going to stick it out and continue to contain it overseas with our current peace time military, or pull out, put our heads in the sand and wait for a global war that will really be something to bitch about. Alot of people think a world war of I and II scale won't happen again, I disagree.
 

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Actually Judge, no...

We are militarily controlling Iraq… In France, there wasn’t armed patrols of US soldiers conducting military operations in civilian neighborhoods four years after their liberation… We weren’t propping-up a government saying, when they stand-up we will stand down. France was in control of their own country… The current government of Iraq is not…

Iraq would be in full blown civil war if we weren’t militarily in control…

If I am wrong maybe you can describe what an occupation is…
What's going on in Iraq is vastly different. In France, etc our troops didn't encounter the insurgency they are engaging with in Iraq. The enemy was clearly defined. In Iraq the enemy is camouflaged.

Iraq is not going to be our next state. We are set up there militarily to prevent what you described. If in France, Italy etc we encountered the same kind of resistance there as is occurring in Iraq now, all would have been different. The civil war there is occurring before everyone's eyes, and it's going on now whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Both sides are in the process of trying to eliminate the other.

Once Iraq gets control of their country our military will stand down. The King keeps telling everyone this, but the Far Left refuses to believe him. Iran keeps funding the insurgency to keep us there. They are provoking an all out war with us. The evidence of this is overwhelming. Surely you can see this.

Only Far Left ideology would suggest we conquered Iraq to occupy it and not leave. If you want to get technical, we are occupying Iraq until they can take care of themselves. Until then we're stuck there, unless of course you agree with the Far Left and we pull up now an leave and watch Iran raise their flag there.
 

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Yeah, occupation isn't a bad word in and of itself. I don't know why we, as Americans, feel the need to be so ashamed of our self defense measures. I don't think Iraq is worse off now than it was before we "occupied" it, and outside of Bush hater's and news pundits, Iraqis tend to agree with that statement (except for the 1-5% that benefited from the dictator). Sure, there will be plenty of casualties on both sides for a long time to come, but since when did we get so disillusioned as to think we could fight a war and not have that, soldiers and civilians alike.

There will be growing pains with this conflict as there are with all wars, and we're either going to stick it out and continue to contain it overseas with our current peace time military, or pull out, put our heads in the sand and wait for a global war that will really be something to bitch about. Alot of people think a world war of I and II scale won't happen again, I disagree.
:agree :agree
 

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Good stuff. We could get technical about the terms, but in the purest sense, we are not occupying Iraq. We occupied Japan after the surrender, not Iraq. It is a conflict of completely differing magnitute and scope.

We MUST however, defend ourselves from the Islamic fundamentalists that want to convert or kill infidels. That is their mission and we had better get that through our heads and take whatever measures are necessary to see it to a right and proper end.

If we leave Iraq, the world will know that the US has no resolve.

Should we have gone there when we did. Dunno.... I am not an expert on such things. We must now finish it regardless.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So, out on the table we have:

For our sacrifice:
  • We showed the world we can be tough
  • Potential democracy in the Middle East
  • Liberated from a tyrannical dictator
But there are flaws in each of those bullets
  • What are our military capabilities now that much of our military resources are being spent in Iraq. Iran seems to be playing with us on this point… Are we capable of effectively waging another war front if needed…
  • Iran already has a democracy… But point taken...
  • Well, no complaints here… except at least Saddam rooted out international terrorist like Al Qaida from his country… The result is a country that is now a recruiting and training ground for terrorist… Would it not have been easier to fight Al Quida if they were confined to Afghanistan/Pakistan. Now it’s like a cancer that has spread…


What's going on in Iraq is vastly different.
Ya, we need to militarily occupy and control Iraq for them to be “Liberated”… That’s the difference…
 

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I was going to post this on the 9/11 string but decided that should be for 9/11 conspiracy theories that I think are based more on fiction, imagination, and political views… Although, sometimes conspiracies turn out to be true…

Just a single question… It should be a simple question with a simple answer… but somehow it’s not all that simple…

How has America benefited from occupying Iraq?

It’s an important question for many reasons… And it really goes to the root of why Americans are losing resolve in this war…

Almost 4 years into it, America is weighing the benefits with the costs… This will ultimately drive the decision whether we stay or go…
It is simple to answer this question.

Yes we have benefited. The whole world has benefited, even if they were too cowardly to do the right thing.

We are losing some of the benefit because of the anti-war movement which sends a confused message to countries like Iran, N. Korea, Syria and China that we will lose our resolve before we finish the job.

The world is definately a safer place without Saddam.

The real problem in Iraq lies in how we wage war. We try to wage a nice war. We limit civilian casualties while our enemy uses civilians for cover knowing we won't be able to get them. They then wait us out till we lose our resolve. Think of Vietnam, we could have won there but we didn't really try, we just tried to fight till we had a truce and everyone could just get along. It doesn't work. Some people will never get along, they will always try to harm us and stop the good we do. We need to hunt those people down, and rid them from the gene pool.

Now think back to Japan. We decided that we weren't going to lose American lives, we valued our own lives more than our enemies lives. We decided that if they hid in civilian areas that made the civilian areas a fair target. So we fire-bombed them. We completely destroyed our enemy. We beat them into complete submission and left them with nothing. We also didn't have the mindset that we were going to fight Japan till they were back within their borders, we decided that unconditional surrender was all that was acceptable. In the end there was no question who the winner was, it was us.

Fast forward to Iraq where we, at the expense of our soldiers lives, protect the civilians that are either helping or at least allowing the insurgents and terrorists to take cover. If we started a campaign of just leveling any area that had terrorists. If we would plan on killing instead of stopping our enemies, this war would be over sooner. There ultimately would be less loss of life. We would also send a clear message to all of our enemies that there will be nothing left of you when we are done with you. The bullies would then pick on some one other than us.
 

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How has America benefited from occupying Iraq?
Good question. I guess it depends on who you ask. Some think we've done nothing but stir up a big hornet's nest and have recruited more terrorists that Osama ever thought of. Others think we're liberating a country from an evil dictator, eliminating terrorists, and are bringing democracy and stability to the middle east. Both statements contain some truth.

As usual, I find myself somewhere in the middle. I seriously question any ties between Iraq and Al Qaida. Iraq was a secular, relatively modern and westernized state in many respects, yet it was ruled with an iron fist by a ruthless, bloody tyrant. He was a ****heel and the world is better without him. But I think Saddam figured out a long time ago that was the only way you can rule these people. Democracy isn't for everyone, it doesn't work in every situation, and if the people don't want it, it sure won't work. Fighting is all these people know. If they don't have a common enemy to fight, they fight each other.

I think there were other ways we could have eliminated Hussein and instituted regime change short of a military invasion. But that's not the road we took, so we have to deal with the situation we created. I don't think we should have gone into Iraq. Afghanistan? By all means. There was indisputable evidence linking 9/11 and al Qaida to Afghanistan. Not so with Iraq. BUT now that we are there, we have no choice but to stick it out and win. There is no alternative. If we wimp out now and retreat with our collective tails between our legs, they win the physical battle and more importantly, they win the psychological battle. America will be percieved as weak, a pushover, no resolve, no backbone, an easy target who can't move beyond bickering among ourselves to win a war. So I say hit the bastards with everything we have. Let them send as many insurgents over the borders as they want, we'll bomb their asses into paradise too. Hopefully they run out of people before we run out of bombs and bullets. That's a pretty hardline view, but you don't play paddy-cakes in a war.

Here's another thought: Iran is next. Notice all the sabre-rattling going on lately? The US is stepping up the rhetoric against them just like they did with Iraq prior to the invasion. We probably won't see a full-on military invasion like Iraq, but look for us to bomb some of their nuclear installations before Bush leaves office. Just an observation.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It is simple to answer this question.

Yes we have benefited. The whole world has benefited, even if they were too cowardly to do the right thing.

We are losing some of the benefit because of the anti-war movement which sends a confused message to countries like Iran, N. Korea, Syria and China that we will lose our resolve before we finish the job.

The world is definately a safer place without Saddam.

The real problem in Iraq lies in how we wage war. We try to wage a nice war. We limit civilian casualties while our enemy uses civilians for cover knowing we won't be able to get them. They then wait us out till we lose our resolve. Think of Vietnam, we could have won there but we didn't really try, we just tried to fight till we had a truce and everyone could just get along. It doesn't work. Some people will never get along, they will always try to harm us and stop the good we do. We need to hunt those people down, and rid them from the gene pool.

Now think back to Japan. We decided that we weren't going to lose American lives, we valued our own lives more than our enemies lives. We decided that if they hid in civilian areas that made the civilian areas a fair target. So we fire-bombed them. We completely destroyed our enemy. We beat them into complete submission and left them with nothing. We also didn't have the mindset that we were going to fight Japan till they were back within their borders, we decided that unconditional surrender was all that was acceptable. In the end there was no question who the winner was, it was us.

Fast forward to Iraq where we, at the expense of our soldiers lives, protect the civilians that are either helping or at least allowing the insurgents and terrorists to take cover. If we started a campaign of just leveling any area that had terrorists. If we would plan on killing instead of stopping our enemies, this war would be over sooner. There ultimately would be less loss of life. We would also send a clear message to all of our enemies that there will be nothing left of you when we are done with you. The bullies would then pick on some one other than us.

You really cannot compare WWII and this war... The Japanese brutally attacked us... They started it and we finished...

Unless you haven't been paying attention we started this one... and we did it without a valid reason... That alone makes our fight an uphill battle...

So, your solution is to kill even more Iraqis? Take the gloves off, right? As if they aren't getting killed enough...
 

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Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 ?

We went to Afghanistan where the terrorist were training and took them on in there backyard and won. Iraq was sitting there thumbing there nose and violating UN resolution one after another. We also got bad intel from every major intelligence source (England, Russia, Germany) that they had wmd's. Yeah, our planning wasn't the best as far as predicting what would happen, but you need to read your military history if you think we've ever planned for every contigency. For better or worse we went in and saved a hell of a lot of people from rape, murder, and worse. I'd rather go out of this world by an IED than have my family raped and tortured for some mad man's sick viewing pleasure (ie Saddam & Sons) and the Iraqis I know feel the same way.

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?

Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I might start caring (but probably not) when Osama bin Laden turns himself in to be hung and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you guessed it - - I don't care ! ! ! ! !

Let me close with a quote from my favorite President,

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God,
then we will be a nation gone under." -Ronald Reagan
 

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Let me close with a quote from my favorite President,

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God,
then we will be a nation gone under." -Ronald Reagan

If the Far Left gets their way, any reference to God will be eliminated. If we do not take control of the situation unfolding in Iran, that could easily read One nation under Allah.

There are people out there that think this is not possible... Those are the people and I am pointing a finger at, (the Far Left...) that are dangerous.

"You really cannot compare WWII and this war... The Japanese brutally attacked us... They started it and we finished..."

I guess 911 didn't happen. Radical Islam brutally attacked us (some think we attacked ourselves) . They are still boasting about it, and are trying to eclipse that episode. If you are with the Far Left in their flawed ideology that our government was involved in this and we had it coming because of our foreign policy, I question if you really want us to prevail. The Far Left wants us to fail, and if we do they will be able to poison more with their flawed agendas. Granted Iraq did not bomb us, but his threat to us and his involvement in the training of evil, his removal is better for everyone, except the Far Left.

This Iraq thing as spread way beyond what anyone thought. Now that it has, it has to be dealt with.

How do you suppose we finish it? Do we finish it after Iran gets Nukes? France is all for them getting them. Our Far Left Hollywood people are all for them getting them. So what is your proposal to protect us? What are your ideas on stopping our enemy from destroying us?

The training ground for terrorists is being funded by Iran. They are training, funding and doing much planning to help them destroy us. If we cut and run as the Far Left advocates what do you suppose will happen?

The very people who have divided this country have no strategy to exit Iraq without more genocide, and protect us from the radicals? They think it won't happen. The only strategy they have is to destroy the Republican party. They think talking to Iran is the solution? If you listen to the MORONIC ideas of the Tim Robbins, etc, you are more intent on dividing than coming together.

Saturday night at 9 PM EST on fox, a documentary on Radical Islam is on... It may be worth everyone's best interest to watch it.
 

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Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 ?

We went to Afghanistan where the terrorist were training and took them on in there backyard and won. Iraq was sitting there thumbing there nose and violating UN resolution one after another. We also got bad intel from every major intelligence source (England, Russia, Germany) that they had wmd's. Yeah, our planning wasn't the best as far as predicting what would happen, but you need to read your military history if you think we've ever planned for every contigency. For better or worse we went in and saved a hell of a lot of people from rape, murder, and worse. I'd rather go out of this world by an IED than have my family raped and tortured for some mad man's sick viewing pleasure (ie Saddam & Sons) and the Iraqis I know feel the same way.

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?

Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I might start caring (but probably not) when Osama bin Laden turns himself in to be hung and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you guessed it - - I don't care ! ! ! ! !

Let me close with a quote from my favorite President,

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God,
then we will be a nation gone under." -Ronald Reagan
Well said Patriot!
:agree
 

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:agree with every statement you made, and i'm with you when you say "I Don't Care". Something has to be done, completed, finished... There was another statement made earlier in this post about standing up for your self, something like "if you don't stand up and punch some one the the nose once in a while others will think your weak".

I believe we are being seen around the world as getting soft. When I was growing up, The United States of America, OUR country, was the power house of the world. When someone was in trouble we came in and fixed it, start to finish... Now, it seems that we get close but aren't able to finish the job at hand.

I'm not a political person, and don't know much about all the termoil that is running rampant around the world, just what I see on the news and read about in the paper. And know that most of that is falsly tainted more then factualy reported. But from what I see, we are too busy trying to be politicly correct in the way people are treated in this country. This is our country, we were established on a set of beliefs that were very simple in they're meanings. And if those that come into our country don't want to abide by those beliefs, then they should leave. It's that simple...
 

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Muslims, who needs them

Tell you what I am sick of........ People that are going the extra mile not to say or do anything that pisses off Muslims.

It's like you have to walk on egg shells and be damn careful not to hurt their feelings. People are feeling sorry for the Muslims that are peace loving and are going to lengths not to hurt their feelings. I don't feel sorry for them. Islam is a threat to us, I don't care for them. If the peace loving Muslims want peace then it's up to them to stand up and revolt against their radical brother and sisters that are murderers and hell bent on killing. They won't stand up though, because they will be turned on. If they stay silent, they will benefit in the long run because they believe their profit will manifest himself when the world becomes Islam. Many of them want peace and at the same token want their profit to come. IMO Islam is a hypocritic cult. They want peace, but spread it by the sword.

I've had it with the giving them an extra mile. When you look at their religion it is based on forcing their religion on others. It is spread by the sword, and when the pope mentioned that it sent them into an adolescent uproar.

The honest, and peace loving Muslims are lumped in to the same category as the radicals. Ain't that just a shame.

During WWII all Japanese Americans were herded up and put in camps. They were processed and checked out. If the government wanted to do that now with Muslims, I'd support it. Is it against our constitutional rights? Yes. So is murder.

Islam has made me loath them by the actions of the bad. The good suffer with the bad, that's just a fact of life. If Radical Islam gets their way we all will suffer too and all the ones so worried about insulting them will have their heads removed as well as those who loath them. The Jane Fonda's, and Tim Robbins of the country will be first in line to sign up to their cult. If they speak out against them as they do our government, no mercy will be spared on them.

 
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