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Discussion Starter #1
I am looking at a GTO and its Vin # is 23537 not 23737.The guy claims it is a GTO .Does this mean it is a Tempest GTO and not a Lemans GTO.I am a little confused.Or is this just a clone?The car is a 1965 .
 

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I don't know the difference in the vin numbers but I do know that in 1965 the GTO was still a Tempest with the GTO option.
 

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A '65 GTO is based on the LeMans, and would have a 23737 if it's a hartop. The 23537 is a Tempest Custom code, and would indicate that the car is NOT a real GTO. You are looking at a fake.
 

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:agree

On a side note, When the GTO was new there was a lot of confusion over if the car was a Tempest or a LeMans. Most magazine articles including the famous Car & Driver Pontiac GTO vs Ferrari GTO article called the car a Pontiac Tempest GTO. Many GTOs today still have Tempest on the registration title but the 37 (LeMans) code is in the VIN and cowl tag.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
That is what I thought! He has documentation on the PHS.The GTO OPTIONS is highlighted in yellow but nothing underneath is highlighted.where it saids all the above items are included in this option , again nothing is highlighted.I was a little confused.I am a newbie and looking to pick up a 1965 GTO but not a clone.
The PHS also states that it is a TEMPEST GTO.Highlighted in Yellow.
 

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Never use a PHS provided to you by the owner other than comparing it to the PHS you just ordered yourself. Many people are taking PHS paperwork and making it their own version.
 

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Every 1965 PHS says "Tempest GTO" highlighted, hand printed. For every Tempest, LeMans, and GTO. PHS services uses the same template for all cars. Means nothing. What means something is the build sheet that comes with the PHS, showing engine codes, trans, GTO option (option 382) etc. Indesputable.
 

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Does the VIN have a Z in it? The cowl tag is from Fremont, CA. You should have a letter Z (Fremont) as well in your VIN.

I noticed your PHS has rally wheels but the tires are marked 7.35X14. Rally wheels came with the 7.75X14 size tires.

The VIN and cowl tag info not matching up is not good.
 

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On your cowl tag, you have 2 options listed. B70 which is a padded dash. Padded dash is NOT highlighted on your PHS. The C08 is the cordova top. Also noted with the P2. 2 is the black cordova top and the P is the wonderful Irish Mist paint.

Too many thing don't agree.
 

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Attached are 2 different examples for you. I kept these from 2 GTO's that got scrapped out, both 1965's. You can see what the vin tag looks like from one of them, and what the cowl plate looks like from the other.

What I noticed on the example you sent, there is a hole in the upper right which should not be there. The rivet on the lower right looks a little less than perfect to me. And, this just might be nothing, but notice that the raised outline on your cowl tag goes all the way around the tag. Mine only has the raised outline at top and bottom only. Pulled out my 1968 GTO (Framingham factory built) cowl tag, and it also only has the raised ridge on top and bottom. Might just be the plant at which it was built and the supplier for the cowl tag.

I would get a copy of the PHS documents for the Tempest vin number and would bet that this would show that the car did not have the GTO option. My guess would be that the car has been altered or the cowl tag added to fool the less knowing. Vin and cowl tag should both match in that they would be optioned as the GTO - and you can see this with my examples.
 

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The raised outline all the way around the tag is a very good observation. Fremont tags came that way though (raised all the way around). Each plant did thing differently on their cowl tags. If you know what to look for you might just spot a fake.
 

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Fremont tags had the raised border all the way around. They were also bare metal, and left unpainted. Most said "Mirror Glaze Acrylic Laquer" in script at the bottom. The trim tag posted has been off the car, as evidenced by the left side rivet and smears of sealer, etc. This appears to be a swapped tag. The date code on the tag is 12d. Should match the build date on the build sheet. Does it? Be advised that people order a PHS and can highlight what they want. It's the build sheet for the car (that comes with the PHS) that tells the true story. To get that, you need to order your own PHS. As I stated earlier, the VIN verifies that the car is a Tempest Custom, and NOT a GTO. No matter what trim tag is in place.
 

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I believe GM started using Rosette Rivets for their VIN tags in 65 at all plants, here is an image of the rivet for Oldsmobile which is the same for Pontiac. If the VIN Plate has round rivets more than likely the tag has been changed. Also, ask the seller for a copy of the PHS billing history which includes the VIN number.

 

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......And this is why I don't condone "cloning". :cuss:

Thank God for Jim Mattison and PHS. Sad to say there are just too many shady people out there. I hope OP does the homework here if he is truly interested in the car. Honestly though if you find the seller is being fraudulent selling this car he should be reported to the authorities.

I don't have a problem with anyone building their dream car, a silk purse out of a sows ear so to speak but don't misrepresent it as what it is not. Cloning a car and selling it as the real thing with the only goal to cut a profit is thievery.
 
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