Pontiac GTO Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I found the original fan shroud in the trunk. It's cracked, but I think it's usable. I've already got the radiator installed. I removed the four bolts that go into the water pump pulley. I also loosed the tension on the power steering pump so I could work with the belts.

I'm really not sure how to proceed from here. Do I need some kind of pulley puller? I'm not having much luck with google. Hopefully I don't have to pull the radiator. I already jacked it up a bit trying to stab this thing earlier. It's hot out. Figured I'd ask, and take a break.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
690 Posts
I found the original fan shroud in the trunk. It's cracked, but I think it's usable. I've already got the radiator installed. I removed the four bolts that go into the water pump pulley. I also loosed the tension on the power steering pump so I could work with the belts.

I'm really not sure how to proceed from here. Do I need some kind of pulley puller? I'm not having much luck with google. Hopefully I don't have to pull the radiator. I already jacked it up a bit trying to stab this thing earlier. It's hot out. Figured I'd ask, and take a break.
Just wiggle it around.Well that didn't sound good. Tap the fan clutch with a rubber mallet. It just comes straight out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
hello ...

on a stubborn fan ,,, I like to either cut a card board box to cover as much of the radiator as i could .. or wrap the blades with a towel

all it takes is a bump ... and its a couple hundo mis take ....

as mentioned above they like to mate together ,,,,, the water pump shaft sticks into the fan clutch about 1/8-3/16" and the ca be stubborn .... sometimes coming off with the pulley helps keep it straight

be safe .....cover it up

oh and ''

on a clutch fan it should be 4 nuts and lockwasehers on STUDS for a clutch
style fan ,,, not bolts ,,,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-GM-W...etor-Stud-Bolt-5-16-x-1-1-2-NOS-/280904098902
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
hello ...

on a stubborn fan ,,, I like to either cut a card board box to cover as much of the radiator as i could .. or wrap the blades with a towel

all it takes is a bump ... and its a couple hundo mis take ....

as mentioned above they like to mate together ,,,,, the water pump shaft sticks into the fan clutch about 1/8-3/16" and the ca be stubborn .... sometimes coming off with the pulley helps keep it straight

be safe .....cover it up

oh and ''

on a clutch fan it should be 4 nuts and lockwasehers on STUDS for a clutch
style fan ,,, not bolts ,,,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-GM-W...etor-Stud-Bolt-5-16-x-1-1-2-NOS-/280904098902
I'm ticked at myself for trying to get that shroud in after giving up on removing the fan the first time. It's definitely stubborn. And I may very well buy a new fan shroud since I've gone to the trouble of buying replacement baffles. I definitely don't want to deal with overheating issues. It's too bad I had medical stuff last year. I had planned on buying an aluminum radiator, and possibly electric fans. Cardboard would have been very smart. Thanks for reminding me it's always better to be safe than sorry. And I definitely don't have lock washers or studs, so that's going to change. I'm inclined to pull all of the belts to replace them. While I'm at it, I want to clean up some of the grease and dirt that I'm finding.
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Just wiggle it around.Well that didn't sound good. Tap the fan clutch with a rubber mallet. It just comes straight out.
It's amazing. I've got so many tools, but a rubber mallet is not one of them. Actually, I'm finding a few tools I wish I had since I started on this gto adventure. Line wrenches are on the list, as well as a rubber mallet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
I am like black69judge,..always put cardboard on the radiator when working up there. You definitely need the lock washer when reinstalling.
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I am like black69judge,..always put cardboard on the radiator when working up there. You definitely need the lock washer when reinstalling.
black69judge has got me thinking it's best to pull the water pump to verify it's set up with the correct impeller. I know my car had cooling problems in the past, and the fact that it's using bolts instead of studs tells me it's worth checking out. I don't want to be doing this all over again in the near future because I didn't make an effort to cover all of my bases. I'm going to see if I can source the studs, washers, and nuts too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
:nerd:a:nerd::nerd::nerd::nerd:

I use a flow cooler water pump, really keeps it cool. I changed from an 8 bolt water pump on my 66 to the 11 bolt water pump.

If you are trying to keep everything original the you may want the 8 bolt pump. But, the 11 bolt pump is improved and one of the main things is the timing covers are reproduced. The timing covers rot out from hot coolant and years of use and neglect. They are not Re made, so you have to source one or find a reconditioned one. They exist but not so easy.

If you get into the water pump, consider this as your timing cover may be damaged also. Butler Performance web site will show you lots of variables on these options. They sell a conversion kit to go from 8 bolt to 11 bolt pumps, with the new timing cover. Other vendors have them as well.

The flow cooler pump works great, check them out. Everything costs more money, but if you do it right the first time it will save you time and trouble later. Go slow check out the options and assess what you can do.

The internal water pump plate gap is critical on Pontiacs, whatever water pump you use.

You will get it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,178 Posts
Lemans guy: If you are trying to keep everything original then you may want the 8 bolt pump. They are not Re made, so you have to source one or find a reconditioned one. They exist but not so easy."

PJ: KRE offers a new manufacture 8-bolt timing cover with the correct dimple for guys who use the tri-power set-up. Kauffman Racing Equipment
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
Thanks PJ I stand corrected,...Kaufman has one that is great. So if you pull your WP make sure you examine that timing cover for corrosion.

It would be a good time to change it. I went to an 11 bolt, one reason was the serpentine belt system I used from CVF racing would not work with an 8 bolt pump.

Good to have choices, and good for Kaufman for making the 8 bolt
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Lemans guy: If you are trying to keep everything original then you may want the 8 bolt pump. They are not Re made, so you have to source one or find a reconditioned one. They exist but not so easy."

PJ: KRE offers a new manufacture 8-bolt timing cover with the correct dimple for guys who use the tri-power set-up. Kauffman Racing Equipment
Thanks PJ I stand corrected,...Kaufman has one that is great. So if you pull your WP make sure you examine that timing cover for corrosion.

It would be a good time to change it. I went to an 11 bolt, one reason was the serpentine belt system I used from CVF racing would not work with an 8 bolt pump.

Good to have choices, and good for Kaufman for making the 8 bolt
Thanks guys! I'm heading outside to work on this shortly....
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lemans guy: If you are trying to keep everything original then you may want the 8 bolt pump. They are not Re made, so you have to source one or find a reconditioned one. They exist but not so easy."

PJ: KRE offers a new manufacture 8-bolt timing cover with the correct dimple for guys who use the tri-power set-up. Kauffman Racing Equipment
Thanks PJ I stand corrected,...Kaufman has one that is great. So if you pull your WP make sure you examine that timing cover for corrosion.

It would be a good time to change it. I went to an 11 bolt, one reason was the serpentine belt system I used from CVF racing would not work with an 8 bolt pump.

Good to have choices, and good for Kaufman for making the 8 bolt
I pulled the clutch fan and water pump today. I didn't see any obvious issues with the timing cover, but I will look closer tomorrow. I planned to purchase a gates 43122 water pump and keep the dividers. The divider plate seemed to be in decent shape, but I noticed that the edges were chipping a bit when I was cleaning it up. The plate that goes into the timing housing has some corrosion mostly on the back side. I'm not so sure I don't want to replace them now.

I want to be sure to get the cast impeller with correct clearances though. I couldn't see the impeller on the KRE site. If I were to go to the trouble and expense of replacing the timing cover, it sounds like the 69 and later 11 lug design is a better cooling design. Would I have to drop the oil pan to replace the timing cover? And then I'd have to replace pulleys etc... I don't think the bank account will be able to handle this route right now. I will price out the conversion kit and pulley system before making any decisions.

Any recommendations on where to get both dividers for correct gaps to work with the gates water pump? Or do you typically have to bang it into shape with a hammer / dolly?

Does anybody know what in the heck the part in the last pic is for? It looks like one of those spacers I saw for the 69 and later gto's. Anyhow, I found it lying in a crevice below the water pump housing.

Thanks,

John
 

Attachments

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Lemans guy: If you are trying to keep everything original then you may want the 8 bolt pump. They are not Re made, so you have to source one or find a reconditioned one. They exist but not so easy."

PJ: KRE offers a new manufacture 8-bolt timing cover with the correct dimple for guys who use the tri-power set-up. Kauffman Racing Equipment
Thanks PJ I stand corrected,...Kaufman has one that is great. So if you pull your WP make sure you examine that timing cover for corrosion.

It would be a good time to change it. I went to an 11 bolt, one reason was the serpentine belt system I used from CVF racing would not work with an 8 bolt pump.

Good to have choices, and good for Kaufman for making the 8 bolt
I pulled the clutch fan and water pump today. I didn't see any obvious issues with the timing cover, but I will look closer tomorrow. I planned to purchase a gates 43122 water pump and keep the dividers. The divider plate seemed to be in decent shape, but I noticed that the edges were chipping a bit when I was cleaning it up. The plate that goes into the timing housing has some corrosion mostly on the back side. I'm not so sure I don't want to replace them now.

I want to be sure to get the cast impeller with correct spacing though. I couldn't see the impeller on the KRE site. If I were to go to the trouble and expense of replacing the timing cover, it sounds like the 69 and later 11 lug design is a better cooling design. Would I have to drop the oil pan to replace the timing cover? And then I'd have to replace pulleys etc... I don't think the bank account will be able to handle this route right now. I will price out the conversion kit and pulley system before making any decisions.

Any recommendations on where to get both dividers for correct gaps to work with the gates water pump? Or do you typically have to bang it into shape with a hammer / dolly?

Does anybody know what in the heck the part in the first pic is for? It looks like one of those spacers I saw for the 69 and later gto's. Anyhow, I found it lying in a crevice below the water pump housing.

I'm sorry if this post shows as a duplicate. I either see it twice or not at all. Maybe it's cache, but I'll quit trying to fix it...

Thanks,

John
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
Whatever water pump and plates you use you have to work them close with a hammer and Dolly to get the clearance tight. If you go with the 11 bolt cover you will need a new water pump anyway, an 11 bolt pump, if you buy one of the complete conversion kits you will get the divider plates and studs etc.

The 11 bolt pump is about 5/8 inch longer on the snout. It will still fit, mine did. But check your clearance to radiator with that extra 5/8 figured in. Murray sells a thermostatic fan clutch that is 5/8 shorter....that is the one to get if you go with the 11 bolt pump. You are right to check all pulleys alignment etc.

Check Butler Performance web and look at their conversion kits to 11 bolt. Call them, I walk in their place and they are stocked and each parts guy that answers the phone is well versed on the conversions and parts you will need, 8 Bolt or 11 bolt. They ship fast and have competitive prices, and you can pick their brain if you get hung up. They list all the Pontiac torque specs on their web and makes it easy for you to find if you don’t have a factory manual.

Cooling problems you don’t want, and you don’t want to do it over. I would recommend the flow cooler water pump and get new divider plates as well. You can spiff those up, but the chigger bites from corrosion may come into play later.

You will not have to pull your oil pan to change the timing cover, but you will have to pull off your harmonic balancer....

You are into it and will get it right, talk to Butler on Monday morning, you will be glad you did, those guys are very helpful and they love Pontiacs!
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Lemans guy,

I'm usually not a huge fan of the bling, but that aluminum pulley looks awesome.

I've never pulled a harmonic balancer before. I'll need to make sure it's something I can manage if I go this route. I have a 79 RX7 I'm going to sell to put towards the GTO. I really do want to dress up the engine little by little.I was checking out the March serpentine system. It requires 11 bolt water pump too. Thanks for the info...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
Try CVF Racing for a serpentine system, that is what I have. I have met the owners they are from Minnesota. Check their website they make a serpentine system specifically for the Pontiac 400 Engine in any configuration that you want it. It also has an 8 rib Gates serpentine belt, many have a six rib belt.

The quality is tops, I use the all black pulleys. You will save lots of money over competitors, and Butler may be carrying them now as well.

But they have a good web to see prices and configurations and they sell direct.

Pulling the balancer is straight forward job, if you are doing all this work you can do it.

Stay with it! You will have a cool runner!
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hi all, I never even saw 2020 coming... Wow is all that I can say. I wound up in the hospital again, and work was very limited. I couldn't afford to buy any parts for the GTO. My situation is finally back to where I can pick up where I left off.

I purchased the 11 bolt water pump conversion from Butler. I have everything torn down and the front of the block cleaned. I planned to be installing the timing cover today, but now I'm researching how much play in timing chain is acceptable. There is play on the passenger side, but none on the driver side. It seems like I should replace it since I'm dug in this far. It seems like I can replace the chain / gears in exactly the same position without messing anything up and causing more work. Should I go with the Melling oem, or go with melling / comp double roller replacement?

I may remove the coolant drain plugs on both sides of the block if I can get to them without stripping them. If I do that, I'll try to run water through the water jackets to flush the block out a bit.

I had already drained the oil, but I'm sure I got some crud down in the oil pan opening. I'll pull the oil pan too so I can clean it. Should I install the timing cover before installing the oil pan? I see where I need to make sure I get the the spot where the oil pan meets the timing cover properly sealed. It seems like the oil pan would be easier to manipulate slightly to get it mated to the timing cover because of the alignment dowels. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.

I may try to buy a new radiator with electric fans. I think a serpentine system will have to wait. Or maybe I do both, and then pay down the Visa as quick as possible before being able to buy any other parts. I'll price everything out later tonight.

Thanks in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,178 Posts
Hi all, I never even saw 2020 coming... Wow is all that I can say. I wound up in the hospital again, and work was very limited. I couldn't afford to buy any parts for the GTO. My situation is finally back to where I can pick up where I left off.

I purchased the 11 bolt water pump conversion from Butler. I have everything torn down and the front of the block cleaned. I planned to be installing the timing cover today, but now I'm researching how much play in timing chain is acceptable. There is play on the passenger side, but none on the driver side. It seems like I should replace it since I'm dug in this far. It seems like I can replace the chain / gears in exactly the same position without messing anything up and causing more work. Should I go with the Melling oem, or go with melling / comp double roller replacement?

I may remove the coolant drain plugs on both sides of the block if I can get to them without stripping them. If I do that, I'll try to run water through the water jackets to flush the block out a bit.

I had already drained the oil, but I'm sure I got some crud down in the oil pan opening. I'll pull the oil pan too so I can clean it. Should I install the timing cover before installing the oil pan? I see where I need to make sure I get the the spot where the oil pan meets the timing cover properly sealed. It seems like the oil pan would be easier to manipulate slightly to get it mated to the timing cover because of the alignment dowels. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.

I may try to buy a new radiator with electric fans. I think a serpentine system will have to wait. Or maybe I do both, and then pay down the Visa as quick as possible before being able to buy any other parts. I'll price everything out later tonight.

Thanks in advance!
First, you won't be removing the pan unless you pull the engine.

Yes, replace the timing chain & gears since you have the timing cover off. You will see a dot on the cam & crank gear. Simply line these up by turning the engine over until they do. Then remove the gears & chain and install the gears & chain the same way the Dot's are positioned. Take a picture so you don't forget how they go. They should be vertical, in line with each other.

OEM or double roller is a personal choice. The OEM works fine and is cheaper. The double roller is a little stronger and used on high performance builds with bigger cams and heavier pressure valve springs. They cost a little more. I use the double roller on my rebuilds, but if budget is a concern, then OEM type. I think the last double roller I used was from Summit and it was reasonable. If you order over $100 with Summit, shipping is free.

The timing cover doesn't have to be manipulated to fit. Chevy is a different concern. I replaced my alignment dowels with new, but if yours look good, you can keep them.

I assume a new harmonic balancer with the conversion? The '67 timing marks are different than the later 11-bolt water pump. Not sure what was included with the conversion. Also assume you got the early 4" water pump length so as not to mess up pulley alignment? Later pumps are 4 1/2".

You may have issues with a water leak at the "O-ring" seal that mates the timing cover to the intake manifold. Normally you want the intake loose and draw the intake up against the O-ring to seal it, then tighten the intake bolts. To do this may mess up the intake gaskets IF it would even move for you. So put some good quality sealant on both sides of the O-ring to help in sealing and hopefully no water leaks.

Not sure if removing the drain plugs will be a good idea seeing the age of the engine. Break one, and you'll be in a pickle to fix. So I might leave these alone and just flush as best you can.

The front section of the pan is basically flat. Look down inside that area with a flashlight and if you see any junk, you may be able to simply get down in there with a rag/wipe and wipe it clean. You could also pull the oil drain pan and flush the pan with a couple quarts of thin weight oil - maybe warm it up to help the flow.

So that should help answer your questions, but throw out any more and we will try to help you along.
(y)
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thank you Pontiac Jim. I had started a new post that I didn't see any way the oil pan would come out without pulling the engine. I hooked the long skinny wand from the house vac to the shop vac, but couldn't get in there enough to suck out the clumps of grime. I figured I would get a wooden dowel with a shop rag wrapped around the end to try to scoop it towards the opening to where I can vacuum it out. I was thinking the same thing to pour some cheap oil down into the pan to hopefully catch any remaining crud, and I will be sure to heat it up.

I got the conversion kit from Butler Performance. The upper pulley that came with will align with my existing pulleys. I didn't get a new balancer or crank pulley figuring I would get a serpentine system down the road a bit. At this point, I may order the balancer, crank pulley, and timing chain from Butler Performance. Then decide if I should purchase a new fan shroud or try to afford a new radiator with electric fans. Take care.
 

·
Registered
1967 GTO
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I assume a new harmonic balancer with the conversion? The '67 timing marks are different than the later 11-bolt water pump. Not sure what was included with the conversion. Also assume you got the early 4" water pump length so as not to mess up pulley alignment? Later pumps are 4 1/2".
I will postpone electric fans and a serpentine system until I can afford to rebuild the 455 block I have in the garage. I realized that I'm over complicating things, and really just want to get her back on the road!

I ordered the harmonic balancer and crankshaft pulley that would have come with my 8 bolt to 11 bolt water pump kit from Butler. I ordered a fan shroud from Ames. Just waiting on parts now!
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top