[JohnnyGTO67]

This may seem like a broken record, but would like people's opinions with my unique situation.

I am ready to install my engine to the frame. Currently there's not much in the way. I'm running a mini starter and a Trans Dapt oil relocation kit.

Here comes the big ask! Dougs Headers, they are going in! Many have suggested laying the headers on the frame and dropping the engine in. My plan is to attach the headers and drop the engine in--complete. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to doing it this way.

I've attached a pic of how the frame will be upon installation.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

They did it that way on the assembly line for a reason. Should be easier than the way most of us install headers. (Loosen motor mounts, hoist or jack engine up, bust knuckles, heat pipes and swear). I believe that's a z-bar weldment on your frame. If so, getting the clutch linkage together will be much easier. You've already addressed the oil filter housing interference issue. With many headers including Doug's, you may need to clearance headers for the upper camber/caster a arm shaft bolts on driver and/or passenger side which will still be easier. The only drawback is that anyone helping you or within earshot won't be learning any new words. If your going to do it, that's the best way.

My garage is soundproofed. Only poor souls that will be hearing my obscenities are my dear old dogs!

I was never successful, trying to install the engine with headers on it, in a GTO

@armyadarkness, I was awaiting your response as we have similar builds.

When you attempted the install, was your frame setup similar to mine? When I get around to it tonight I'll go through a dry run and see if the headers hit frame/suspension.

There's a video

.

FMG had to make some dents on the tubes for fitment, but every car is different so wish me luck

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Ive owned two 67's and a 66, and none would allow the engine to be installed with headers. On one 67, the front end was off, and we still couldnt do it. Not sure how your setup is... and, that was using Cyclones... Now I use Dougs, but Ive not heard that they're any easier

Attached is a picture of how I intend to drop in the engine/headers

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Good Vid. I never had those kind of clearance issues on any 67 install. Except the brake block that is common and the control arms /a frame tops. Solved with torch, prybar and hammer. Possibly slightly tighter on 68-72 due to shorter W.B. I also noticed you have after market tubular control arms. They appear to have a good 1/2 to 1" additional clearance.( you may not have an A arm issue at all do to this) Assuming these are 1 & 3/4" tube headers, when you get them mounted on the engine, you will notice the tubes & collectors taper down low slightly inside the cylinder head on pass side and slightly outside width of cylinder head on D side to allow more clearance for starter & clutch actuation assembly.
If You're mounting engine with headers with some sort of cherry picker, you may need to tilt the motor and trans assembly down in the rear. You may also have to tilt D - side of engine down due to header protruding out slightly wider than head on that side. But you can also move trans crossmember for more room if needed. Can't see how this wouldn't be the easiest way to do it.
The real beauty of this is if we're wrong, you simply take the headers off, drop the engine in and do it the typical hard way from underneath on the ground or if you have a hoist, strap the front frame rails down so when you lift the engine a few inches to clear, the car doesn't slide off the hoist. I should also say that after many years of header installs and dyno tests with headers compared to RA manifolds, I am more a proponent of the RA manifolds for over all sealing and performance on a mild build that is. Either way, If you're choosing headers on a high perf build or just simply cool factor, hats off to you.

Thank you for the insight. I'll take off the Trans x-member for good measure.

I have to ask these questions because I'm operating on limited time every night. Knowing before hand which direction to take makes the process that much more efficient.I've got a 6 week old baby that is seriously slowing down my resto.😉

Dougs Dport headers are the lucky ladies.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Let the hurt begin! More to follow

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

@PontiacJim thank.you for your concern. Engine was broken in by the builder.

Round 1 went to the headers tonight. Had them bolted on and it sure as well wasn't going to fit.

It appears my passenger side lower control arm housing was getting in the way. I worry about compromising the integrity of the housing. How much has anyone cut off?

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Have you got a load leveler on that cherry picker? I can't say for sure, but it would help to avoid scratching things up. You've got a beautiful thing going on there (!) and have a good chance of planting that engine, with the headers, without a body shell in the way. There's no way I know of, with the body shell on the frame even with no front clip to place an engine AND headers in place, bolted up. Watch the driver's side rear A-arm bolt. Mine had to be cut short to clear Hooker headers..bacxk in the day.

I do not have a load leveler--nor do I know what that is. I tried to drop in with everything bolted up, but immediately was met with resistance from the rear lower control arm housings.

I removed passenger side header, but may not have the lift oriented correctly(intake lift plate on middle hole). The passenger control arm housing is really getting in the way.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Unless they have changed alot since 2018, you shouldn't have to nor would I cut anything. Looking at your #6 down tube, it looks identical to mine. Is it the #6 or number 8 downtube giving you trouble? Can't see the #8. Are you moving the hoist as far into the engine bay as possible then pulling back towards front of chassis while lowering?
Worst case, take the pass. Side header off, get motor into place and come up from bottom. You may have to remove filter housing if it's still there. Do you have the load leveler that Sick467 mentioned?

I'm catching resistance from the tube with my finger on. Again I may just not have the lift oriented correctly...I have it relatively level. My first pass I lowered the lift to the rear of the mounts and pull the engine forward with zero luck.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

I'm catching resistance from the tube with my finger on. Again I may just not have the lift oriented correctly...I have it relatively level. My first pass I lowered the lift to the rear of the mounts and pull the engine forward with zero luck.

I do not have a load leveler--nor do I know what that is. I tried to drop in with everything bolted up, but immediately was met with resistance from the rear lower control arm housings.

I removed passenger side header, but may not have the lift oriented correctly(intake lift plate on middle hole). The passenger control arm housing is really getting in the way.

Maybe I missed something but what is the importance of keeping the headers on during the motor install? I was thinking the same things are going to get in the way even with the front clip off right? Since it will be easy to bolt them on with the clip off I would just bring them up from the bottom. This is why I didn't even consider headers...my motor fell in with manifolds and the clip on and doing it all by my lonesome....just thinking out loud as I was following the thread.

Maybe I missed something but what is the importance of keeping the headers on during the motor install? I was thinking the same things are going to get in the way even with the front clip off right? Since it will be easy to bolt them on with the clip off I would just bring them up from the bottom. This is why I didn't even consider headers...my motor fell in with manifolds and the clip on and doing it all by my lonesome....just thinking out loud as I was following the thread.

Why do you have to come in here making sense HAHA. You guys, I tell you. Fridge is open.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Well gentlemen, @Baaad65 , gave me some post nut clarity. I pulled some gymnastics, but these SOBs are in. I removed the oil filter housing, starter and had to jack the drivers side up, but they are in. Spent 4 hrs prepping my garage so that I could absolutely destroy it.

More to follow! Body should be on in 2 weeks.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

No cutting of anything unlike the video. Love those valve covers & the headers look awesome.
Looks like a piece of fine jewelry!
Good job 👍

Butler performance provided both.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Well Gentleman--now that the euphoria has worn off its time to examine future issues. I've got alot to do and the positioning of peripheral sub-systems may interfere with my header placement.

The three pictures I've attached are cause for concern.

1. The first shows how close the driverside header is to the rear lower control arm housing. When I "flex" the engine on stock mounts the header tube does contact. Now this isn't a torque monster, but has anyone had issues hitting?
2. The brake lines are awfully close to the header tube. Has anyone rerouted or wrapped their headers to avoid fluid boil?
3. Based on this picture, should I modify my rag joint ro accept the steering column?

I ask these questions because I have a week before the body is dropped which will complicate mods.

Hopefully this thread helps future restos.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

@armyadarkness @GrandTO . Posted a video of header hitting control arm.

The engine mounts are new, albeit Autozone factory. I guess now is the time to buy once cry once--is there a con to have solid engine mounts? I feel like they would put additional strain on the frame.

Shimmming the frame mounts is what you are referring too, yes?

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Once I super glued my nuts to my mother in laws picture.

When I get done St Pats festivities I'll take a clearer video FYSA

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

All information is helpful. I'll have to wait until Monday to speak with Butler/Ames.

I realized my last video displaying my concern was 9 seconds.

Below I attached a longer version for all to see for theirs an mine future mods.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

I think the rubber mounts will do that and maybe it will have more clearance once the trans is bolted on top the crossmember. I think the motor mounts are more towards the front of the motor causing it to sag backwards, I would probably block the motor up taking the stress of the mounts if it's going to sit for an extended period....might be worried about nothing I hope. I see the supervisor is camera shy 😉

I believe I'm taking @PontiacJim advice on staying away from solid mounts.

Between the advice here and those of Ames techs I may purchase one of their upgraded kits for peace of mind. I'm holding up my resto with this decision, but I refuse to ever remove these headers once the body is on.

I think the rubber mounts will do that and maybe it will have more clearance once the trans is bolted on top the crossmember. I think the motor mounts are more towards the front of the motor causing it to sag backwards, I would probably block the motor up taking the stress of the mounts if it's going to sit for an extended period....might be worried about nothing I hope. I see the supervisor is camera shy 😉

The jury is still out, but I will be taking @PontiacJim advice on staying away from solid mounts.

Between the advice here and that from Ames i may uograde now because these headers will not be coming off after the body is on.

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

Ya I think that's a good idea, it's not an all out race car right? I bought the torque lock mounts the one side is bolted through then surrounded by rubber. View attachment 163362 View attachment 163363

@Baaad65 ...I'm going to be staring at the car in the garage with a beer in hand more than driving--#never mind racing!

The engine is moderately "built"--forged internals, port/polished heads, bored .30, 274H comp cams. I believe the builder said it should produce ~485hp at the crank

 

[JohnnyGTO67]

I'm sure a lot of guys here are jealous that you're getting to install headers with the body off 😉

Well--im happy my internet friends cautioned me before I slapped the body on first.

My coworker keeps me in check when I screw things up.