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Cameo Ivory 1967
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Most Pontiacs were set up originally with manifold vacuum to the advance on the distributor. This gave a cooler running engine at low and idle speeds and good advance at cruise speeds where the intake manifold vacuum is still high. I have always run manifold vacuum on my first-gen GTO's, as set-up from the factory. Some engines seem to prefer ported vacuum, though.
I run mine off the intake and sometimes at Cruise my vacuum gets up in the high twenties
 

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I'm not derailing this exciting mystery novel but since kev is taking a break and it was brought up I thought I would share this from Don Gould from FBO Systems who wrote "Tuning To Win". I've talked to him once and have the book and set up my curve to his advice, lot of good info at his site 4secondsflat.com especially spark plug reading. Not saying this is gospel but it works for me and seems to make good sense. I would recommend reading the tech articles and such on the site and get the book....and he has a sense of humor with a tell it like it is quality. Now back to our regularly scheduled drama 😉 Ported vacuum source, Constant manifold vacuum source explained, the difference between ported and manifold vacuum.
 

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Cameo Ivory 1967
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As we see in here daily, no two cars are alike. This is why the full understanding of the process, is much more important than the process itself.

If you just give advice that you heard or advice that worked for you, it could easily work against another member... but if you understand the science and theory behind what youre doing, then you can give the person the skills that they need to resolve thier own issue. That's the "teach a man to fish" principle.

And I would say that this forum is very dedicated to that purpose.

If someone asked me what to set their vacuum advance at, I wouldnt say "10", I would ask about all of their other settings and readings, and then explain why it mattered and what they should expect. In fact, typically when a member posts that they just want the answer and not the explanation, I dont even answer. It's like a trap... I prefer to walk around it.

Every one of us could solve any problem that there ever was, if the single answer to it was written on the wall. Unfortunately, the answer is never that obvious... and that's when scientific understanding comes in. By the process of elimination, you conduct tests until you find the error. However, the more popular method of problem solving, seems to be "throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks". The issue there is that you have to then wade through a pile of shit to get your answer.

As informative as this thread has been to those following, it'll be useless to anyone who finds it next year, because it's very unlikely that they'll read through 20 pages of confusion to find the answer.

The day Kevin posted this thread, I gave him my number. A few pages into the thread, he called me and I told him to pull the dizzy cap and valve covers. That night he discovered a misinstalled rotor, and the next morning he discovered the rocker arms had fallen off... So 5 minutes worth of science was the equivalent of 2 weeks of guessing.

As I said before, I know everyone is here to help, but the best way to help isnt always to give the answers. As jared mentioned, Im quite impressed that Kevin rolled up his sleeves and faced this problem head on. With that determination, success is guaranteed.
 

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Spark plug 'reading' is not what it once was with leaded gas. You can still tell if it's rich or lean or is burning oil, but not much else. The advent of AFR gauges is a true godsend to those who don't have decades to get a 'feel' for adjusting fuel mixtures. Same goes for dyno tuning in general. You can realize a very sharp state of tune with the right equipment even if you are not a 'pro'. As a former 'pro', repairing vehicles on flat-rate salary, I had to be accurate and timely to make money. I learned to fix any known faulty parts or components FIRST and establish a vehicle baseline and go from there. Still works today. One step at a time.
 

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As we see in here daily, no two cars are alike. This is why the full understanding of the process, is much more important than the process itself.

If you just give advice that you heard or advice that worked for you, it could easily work against another member... but if you understand the science and theory behind what youre doing, then you can give the person the skills that they need to resolve thier own issue. That's the "teach a man to fish" principle.

And I would say that this forum is very dedicated to that purpose.

If someone asked me what to set their vacuum advance at, I wouldnt say "10", I would ask about all of their other settings and readings, and then explain why it mattered and what they should expect. In fact, typically when a member posts that they just want the answer and not the explanation, I dont even answer. It's like a trap... I prefer to walk around it.

Every one of us could solve any problem that there ever was, if the single answer to it was written on the wall. Unfortunately, the answer is never that obvious... and that's when scientific understanding comes in. By the process of elimination, you conduct tests until you find the error. However, the more popular method of problem solving, seems to be "throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks". The issue there is that you have to then wade through a pile of shit to get your answer.

As informative as this thread has been to those following, it'll be useless to anyone who finds it next year, because it's very unlikely that they'll read through 20 pages of confusion to find the answer.

The day Kevin posted this thread, I gave him my number. A few pages into the thread, he called me and I told him to pull the dizzy cap and valve covers. That night he discovered a misinstalled rotor, and the next morning he discovered the rocker arms had fallen off... So 5 minutes worth of science was the equivalent of 2 weeks of guessing.

As I said before, I know everyone is here to help, but the best way to help isnt always to give the answers. As jared mentioned, Im quite impressed that Kevin rolled up his sleeves and faced this problem head on. With that determination, success is guaranteed.
OK. I yield to experience and knowledge. Sometimes I speak when I should just listen. Sometimes, what I think I know isn't all I need to know, that much I know. 😜 I never had any high performance or muscle cars when I was growing up or raising a family. I've always repaired my own cars and done extensive work on them, but I never had any performance cars until I got my first '86 Corvette in '98. So, anyhoo, when I finally do get to the day when I get ready to put the old 400 back in mine, I may be asking questions about building it
 

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Cameo Ivory 1967
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Lol. Experience and knowledge are rarely used to describe me... But I do advocate for a unified understanding of mechanicals, vs just repeating what you hear.

There are things that I know plenty about... cams, timing, and Pontiac tricks were not included.

I was very fortunate that I was able to come to this forum, as a blank slate, with extensive scientific and mechanical skills, eager to learn and with open ears. The corvette forums would not have been so generous as this community.

At the end of the day, it's not what you know that wins the race, it's your determination to the goal. Im glad that so many people came out in this thread to help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #389 · (Edited)
OK, I have a blind builder. And two calibration kits with lots of mismatched parts.

Jets in the carb were stock but had two different size metering rods. LOL

Instead of stock calibration, I am going 1 step leaner on the primary. Stock jets on secondary.

Lubed the accelerator pump.

Cleaned dirt out of a couple of jets on the primary.

The springs in the kit look like the coloring has come off most of them. I measured and sorted the springs by wire diameter and overall length. I can only determine any color on the ones that appear purple (top) and orange (2nd). The top three are .017 wire diameter and the bottom one .015 which I guess is the weakest.
Spring ratings are supposed to be:

Silver 8"
Pink 7"
Orange 5"
Yellow 4"
Blue 3"

Any idea the ratings of these pictured?


Font Parallel Eyelash Symmetry Art
 

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Discussion Starter · #390 · (Edited)
Stock spec jets are .110 and stock rods are .075 x .047
1 step leaner are .107 jets and .073 x .037 rods
I calculated the cross sections. The leaner setup is a smaller cross section only at vacuum when the rods are down. It is actually larger at low vacuum when the rods are up on the small steps.
 

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I'm not derailing this exciting mystery novel but since kev is taking a break and it was brought up I thought I would share this from Don Gould from FBO Systems who wrote "Tuning To Win". I've talked to him once and have the book and set up my curve to his advice, lot of good info at his site 4secondsflat.com especially spark plug reading. Not saying this is gospel but it works for me and seems to make good sense. I would recommend reading the tech articles and such on the site and get the book....and he has a sense of humor with a tell it like it is quality. Now back to our regularly scheduled drama 😉 Ported vacuum source, Constant manifold vacuum source explained, the difference between ported and manifold vacuum.
Hmmm.

FBO: The Vacuum Can needs to be adjusted to pull enough timing in the motor to allow it to burn the today's fuel and limiters installed to set the part throttle cruise timing numbers so they don't pull the timing too high and cause a lean miss at cruise, it's a delicate balancing act to get it all correct.

PJ: Not neccesarily a correct concept. You can adjust your Intial Timing at the balancer to pull more timing than stock and then adjust/limit the vacuum advance total by purchasing a vacuum can with limited advance OR use a stop. Or, you can keep the factory Initial timing and keep the factory can advance OR a combination thereof depending on your engine build. What is not written is you want to limit the Total Mechancial Advance PLUS the Vacuum Advance to around 50 degrees combined while cruising on part/light throttle or off the throttle coasting. A lean miss could be possible (usually your engine will "surge" if over advanced by the vacuum advance). if the timing is "over advanced". This is why we often suggest knowing what all your timing parameters are - Initial with no vacuum advance, Total advance at "X" RPM without vacuum advance, and then how much additional advance the vacuum can provides PLUS at what Hg the vacuum advance begins to function.

FBO: "Ported vacuum: when the ported starts to do it's job and advances the the timing to the total stroke of the vacuum can arm, usually 12-18* (without Limiters) so now have your total of 34* PLUS the stroke of the Canister arm of say 16* net result=50* of total timing under hard acceleration and your motor WILL "Detonate"."

PJ: Engine vacuum drops to near 0 under hard acceleration and drops back down to 34 degrees as set-up by your Total mechanical advance - so that statement is incorrect.

Oh man, this paragraph is a mess:

FBO: "Now to Constant: At idle/part throttle cruise you have high vacuum, the carb is nearly closed causing a restriction which creates the high vacuum level. Under this light load condition and lean AF ratios the motor needs more timing to burn the fuel (Lean Mixtures take Longer to Burn than rich mixtures) - PJ: TRUE. FBO: so you need more timing at idle and cruise to burn the fuel correctly and completely. PJ: TRUE. FBO: When you stomp the throttle you have NO manifold Vacuum so you have NO vacuum timing and at NO time under high load will it ever advance more than the mechanical "All In" numbers. PJ: TRUE. FBO: Stop pointing your finger at the carb for rich idle and top end lean conditions. - PJ: Huh? So a rich idle can be eliminated by simply advancing your timing? And a top end lean condition can also be cured by adjusting my timing? Very cool, I will remember this when one of our members states his carb is running rich at idle or leaning out on the top end - it's not a carb adjustment of the idle circuits or the need for larger jets, its your timing. FBO: It's In Your Distributor Tuning! If your Buddy tells you to hook your Hot Rod distributor to Ported Vacuum, find a new friend because that guys advice is going to blow your crankshaft through the oil pan. PJ: What? Blow my crankshaft through the oil pan? Maybe that's why there are no cars from the mid-1970's and up that used Ported Vacuum to reduce emissions - they all blew their crankshaft through the oil pans. FBO: Same goes for the guy who say's to disconnect it, they obviously have no idea of how it works or what it does or why we use it. PJ: Go looking for a vacuum advance can/distributor on a race car. Guess Pontiac did not know how one worked either when they installed a dual point distributor with no vacuum advance on the 1956 Pontiac 285HP engine or 421 SD engines, the Ford HP engines 352-390-406-427-'67 Shelby 428 and 289 hipos all had no vacuum advance, the Corvette 283 and 409/425 HP had no vacuum advance, and the list of factory cars goes on. A vaccum advance can is always recommended on this Forum because it can aide in a cooler running engine, and better gas mileage, BUT, you can run without one and take your chances.

FBO: "we have Mopar and GM vacuum cans that will read 7" of vacuum. most stock or aftermarket Vac cans will only read down to about 15", the odd one (1 out of 100) will read to 12"

PJ: I can buy GM vacuum cans for the lower vacuum engines on RockAuto, so not as exclusive as a supplier as they think they are. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable. The B28/Echlin #VC-1810/AC-Delco #D1312C/Autozone DV1810 advance can provides 15 degrees of advance, but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine having less than 15” Hg.and produce a rough idle, the stock vacuum can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum of a lumpy cam and constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which in turn can create an unstable idle.
 

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OK. I yield to experience and knowledge. Sometimes I speak when I should just listen. Sometimes, what I think I know isn't all I need to know, that much I know. 😜 I never had any high performance or muscle cars when I was growing up or raising a family. I've always repaired my own cars and done extensive work on them, but I never had any performance cars until I got my first '86 Corvette in '98. So, anyhoo, when I finally do get to the day when I get ready to put the old 400 back in mine, I may be asking questions about building it
The more I research and learn, the more I realize that I didn't really know as much as I thought - so with this perspective, I have learned that there are no absolutes and no Pontiac experts who know it all. I am open to listening without judgment as to whether it is fact or fiction or something in between unless I KNOW. To KNOW about something is to have no more questions because they have all been answered - proving fact or fiction. If someone cannot answer all my questions, then they don't KNOW either. (y)
 

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Hmmm.

FBO: The Vacuum Can needs to be adjusted to pull enough timing in the motor to allow it to burn the today's fuel and limiters installed to set the part throttle cruise timing numbers so they don't pull the timing too high and cause a lean miss at cruise, it's a delicate balancing act to get it all correct.

PJ: Not neccesarily a correct concept. You can adjust your Intial Timing at the balancer to pull more timing than stock and then adjust/limit the vacuum advance total by purchasing a vacuum can with limited advance OR use a stop. Or, you can keep the factory Initial timing and keep the factory can advance OR a combination thereof depending on your engine build. What is not written is you want to limit the Total Mechancial Advance PLUS the Vacuum Advance to around 50 degrees combined while cruising on part/light throttle or off the throttle coasting. A lean miss could be possible (usually your engine will "surge" if over advanced by the vacuum advance). if the timing is "over advanced". This is why we often suggest knowing what all your timing parameters are - Initial with no vacuum advance, Total advance at "X" RPM without vacuum advance, and then how much additional advance the vacuum can provides PLUS at what Hg the vacuum advance begins to function.

FBO: "Ported vacuum: when the ported starts to do it's job and advances the the timing to the total stroke of the vacuum can arm, usually 12-18* (without Limiters) so now have your total of 34* PLUS the stroke of the Canister arm of say 16* net result=50* of total timing under hard acceleration and your motor WILL "Detonate"."

PJ: Engine vacuum drops to near 0 under hard acceleration and drops back down to 34 degrees as set-up by your Total mechanical advance - so that statement is incorrect.

Oh man, this paragraph is a mess:

FBO: "Now to Constant: At idle/part throttle cruise you have high vacuum, the carb is nearly closed causing a restriction which creates the high vacuum level. Under this light load condition and lean AF ratios the motor needs more timing to burn the fuel (Lean Mixtures take Longer to Burn than rich mixtures) - PJ: TRUE. FBO: so you need more timing at idle and cruise to burn the fuel correctly and completely. PJ: TRUE. FBO: When you stomp the throttle you have NO manifold Vacuum so you have NO vacuum timing and at NO time under high load will it ever advance more than the mechanical "All In" numbers. PJ: TRUE. FBO: Stop pointing your finger at the carb for rich idle and top end lean conditions. - PJ: Huh? So a rich idle can be eliminated by simply advancing your timing? And a top end lean condition can also be cured by adjusting my timing? Very cool, I will remember this when one of our members states his carb is running rich at idle or leaning out on the top end - it's not a carb adjustment of the idle circuits or the need for larger jets, its your timing. FBO: It's In Your Distributor Tuning! If your Buddy tells you to hook your Hot Rod distributor to Ported Vacuum, find a new friend because that guys advice is going to blow your crankshaft through the oil pan. PJ: What? Blow my crankshaft through the oil pan? Maybe that's why there are no cars from the mid-1970's and up that used Ported Vacuum to reduce emissions - they all blew their crankshaft through the oil pans. FBO: Same goes for the guy who say's to disconnect it, they obviously have no idea of how it works or what it does or why we use it. PJ: Go looking for a vacuum advance can/distributor on a race car. Guess Pontiac did not know how one worked either when they installed a dual point distributor with no vacuum advance on the 1956 Pontiac 285HP engine or 421 SD engines, the Ford HP engines 352-390-406-427-'67 Shelby 428 and 289 hipos all had no vacuum advance, the Corvette 283 and 409/425 HP had no vacuum advance, and the list of factory cars goes on. A vaccum advance can is always recommended on this Forum because it can aide in a cooler running engine, and better gas mileage, BUT, you can run without one and take your chances.

FBO: "we have Mopar and GM vacuum cans that will read 7" of vacuum. most stock or aftermarket Vac cans will only read down to about 15", the odd one (1 out of 100) will read to 12"

PJ: I can buy GM vacuum cans for the lower vacuum engines on RockAuto, so not as exclusive as a supplier as they think they are. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable. The B28/Echlin #VC-1810/AC-Delco #D1312C/Autozone DV1810 advance can provides 15 degrees of advance, but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine having less than 15” Hg.and produce a rough idle, the stock vacuum can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum of a lumpy cam and constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which in turn can create an unstable idle.
The first thing I said is that it's not the gospel that everyone should follow but the guy has been tuning cars for a long time and I have his cell number if you want to talk to him about it. I may be dumb and gullible but it just seems to make sense, I had my curve like most but now I have it like he recommended, a 14° bushing with 22° on the balancer and my vac can limited to 10° (which I learned here) and it runs cooler and faster than my wife to a half off sale at DSW ! so that's all I have to go by, no track testing or dyno testing. He gives advice to our kind of motors not just race motors, and a few of the members have his book. I just copied his article on timing because it was brought up and thought I would share what is working for me and I know there are a thousand different opinions on this that's all. Now maybe I looked at things differently than you did on some of his theories idk, like having a more advanced timing at idle when those of us with carburetors that are dribbling fuel into the intake and
getting a pooling effect especially with a dual plane like a lot of us have when there's no air velocity. Secondly the crankshaft through the oil pan comment probably is meaning from detonation and yes when you stomp the throttle I know the vac can cuts out but it takes a second so maybe he was a little over the top with that. Third, why didn't those motors you described have a vacuum advance, maybe in '56 they didn't know much about it but certainly by the 60's they did, were they race motors..no so idk why they didn't use it heck Butler didn't have one on my motor when I got it because they said it was a wild card. They certainly knew about adjustable cans or limiters although MSD didn't have one for the R2R dist but I got a proto type limiter from them. And I agree that rich and lean conditions are mostly carb related but don't you think what he is saying is that advanced timing at idle when cylinder pressures are low will burn off more fuel and aren't detrimental but when timing is advanced to much at high rpms results in detonation because of a lean condition? I'm not trying to say he's the be all end all of tuners I just love learning from all these discussions 👍
 

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Discussion Starter · #396 · (Edited)
I think I'm missing the blue spring. The spring with the most widely spread coils is the yellow one so that would be the dark colored spring in my kit.
I've got about 10-1/2" of vacuum at 850 rpm idle , and about 9" vacuum in gear so I'm looking at either the orange or yellow spring, right?
EDIT: forgot the photo

Rectangle Font Parallel Circle Diagram
 

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1971 GTO resto mod. Modified 428 HO, 4 sp (built by midwest muncie) Dana 60, 3.55 rear
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Kevin, I would go with the yellow. If you have something more radical than a factory (milder) cam then your vacuum signal might not be rock steady. You can try the orange springs, but I would check them by opening the metering rod/spring cover with the engine idling and see if there is any "bounce" of the metering rod while using the orange springs. That can throw you off when trying to tune it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #398 ·
Kevin, I would go with the yellow. If you have something more radical than a factory (milder) cam then your vacuum signal might not be rock steady. You can try the orange springs, but I would check them by opening the metering rod/spring cover with the engine idling and see if there is any "bounce" of the metering rod while using the orange springs. That can throw you off when trying to tune it.
Thanks. That's what I'm thinking too. I tried the orange springs. The rods stayed down pretty well but jumped up with a little throttle tickle.
 

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1971 GTO resto mod. Modified 428 HO, 4 sp (built by midwest muncie) Dana 60, 3.55 rear
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Thanks. That's what I'm thinking too. I tried the orange springs. The rods stayed down pretty well but jumped up with a little throttle tickle.
You may at first experience a leaner condition on initial acceleration using the yellow springs but most often times, using the richest hole position on the power piston rod, or larger diameter squirt nozzel(s) off the power piston can help that. This is where the "fine tuning" comes in for your application.
 

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The first thing I said is that it's not the gospel that everyone should follow but the guy has been tuning cars for a long time and I have his cell number if you want to talk to him about it. I may be dumb and gullible but it just seems to make sense, I had my curve like most but now I have it like he recommended, a 14° bushing with 22° on the balancer and my vac can limited to 10° (which I learned here) and it runs cooler and faster than my wife to a half off sale at DSW ! so that's all I have to go by, no track testing or dyno testing. He gives advice to our kind of motors not just race motors, and a few of the members have his book. I just copied his article on timing because it was brought up and thought I would share what is working for me and I know there are a thousand different opinions on this that's all. Now maybe I looked at things differently than you did on some of his theories idk, like having a more advanced timing at idle when those of us with carburetors that are dribbling fuel into the intake and
getting a pooling effect especially with a dual plane like a lot of us have when there's no air velocity. Secondly the crankshaft through the oil pan comment probably is meaning from detonation and yes when you stomp the throttle I know the vac can cuts out but it takes a second so maybe he was a little over the top with that. Third, why didn't those motors you described have a vacuum advance, maybe in '56 they didn't know much about it but certainly by the 60's they did, were they race motors..no so idk why they didn't use it heck Butler didn't have one on my motor when I got it because they said it was a wild card. They certainly knew about adjustable cans or limiters although MSD didn't have one for the R2R dist but I got a proto type limiter from them. And I agree that rich and lean conditions are mostly carb related but don't you think what he is saying is that advanced timing at idle when cylinder pressures are low will burn off more fuel and aren't detrimental but when timing is advanced to much at high rpms results in detonation because of a lean condition? I'm not trying to say he's the be all end all of tuners I just love learning from all these discussions 👍
Vacuum Advance has been around long time. My '48 International has vacuum advance - it moves the distributor body within the engine block, not the points plate inside the distributor. Many HP engines did not use vacuum advance as they were aimed more for all out racing, even though they were sold to the public. Pontiac knew what they were doing - th typical non-285HP engine used a single point distributor with vacuum advance. FBO may be a fine outfit and know what they are doing, BUT, for someone who is unfamiliar with distrib. timing or its purpose, then the things I pointed out are somewhat in question and/or not so accurately explained. I did not like how they inferred "if your buddy says" that your buddy was an idiot or didn't know what he was talking about. There are times, even on a Hotrod, where ported vacuum may work better. There are times when no vacuum advance can work better - it all depends on the engine build and its use/application, and that was never spoken. A rich or lean carb condition could be the problem needing solving and not considering it and seemingly implying it is a distrib issue is not 100% correct. Again, as you have seen here, there is a process of checks/tests to go through to get to the point were you can start looking at the distrib. as the cause or fix of your engine fuel issues - and this should have been mentioned. And making it sound like you want to use them to get your "correct" vacuum can because you can't, is a bit misleading.

The article is a bit skewed and is certainly a marketing piece to steer your to them for your timing set-up, or parts/pieces. But my point overall is from the perspective of that guy/enthusiast who wants to learn/understand the timing features of his set-up and how to best adjust it for his particular engine build. This write-up lacks a bit of accuracy. Maybe the FBO test/tune guy did not write this article and someone else did - which can often be the case. So the inaccuracies are not on the part of FBO, but whomever wrote it up. But then the unknowing newbee or enthusiast read it and takes it to heart and then passes this info to another and then we have mis-information and we are right where FBO talks of when "if your buddy........".

So not a slam at FBO per say, as I don't know them. I do have their FBO ignition box on my '73 Fury and it works great and does exactly as they claimed. My critique is of the article which lends itself to implicate FBO as maybe not being as knowledgeable as I know they are. They are well spoken of and used in the Mopar community with me being one of those proponents for their products.

Like many things, auto or general, write-ups and explanations can found on the internet 100 times over by 100 people who want to post "that" information either to be helpful or get their name on the net. But when certain companies/people who sell a product, offer a service, or are looked to for advice, they need to be as thorough and accurate as they can be so the reader is fully informed with as many of the facts/steps/info as possible to promote a successful outcome - and sometimes that can require a lengthy break down or long article to fully explain or get that info across to the reader, and many internet articles don't do that or are simply thrown together by an author who gets paid to post an article because that's how they make money - and I have read many of these by web authors who make their income this way and don't necessarily know much about the subject.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

;)
 
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