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Discussion Starter #1
ok guys. I'm not totally there yet but I'm ready for some paint and body work to get started on this car. I'm wondering if I can build a paint booth to isolate the car from the outside world of the shop while I attempt to paint it. my buddy said to just make a quick 2x4 frame to go around the outside of it with plastic all around. I thought I needed some way to vent it etc. also, much of this car is already painted, albeit badly and over the top of factory paint. should I strip it with a chemical stripper and then move to body work and priming, or should I just give it a good sand down and go from there leaving all paint in place pretty much? car will be black.
 

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If you've got good adhesion with what's already on it and no rust issues, then unless the existing paint is "too thick" I'd probably sand it all over, lay down a coat of good epoxy primer as a sealer, then go with paint.

Which type/brand/line are you planning to use? Base coat/clear coat? Single stage? etc.

if you can swing it I highly recommend Kevin Tetz's "Paintucation" DVD's -- terrific information. Get them "various places" and/or at paintucation.com

Also he has a forum up at Kevin Tetz's Paintucation Forum that's a great source of help.

Unless you're prepared to spend 'big bucks' on building a booth you're just not going to be able to keep all the dust and trash out of the paint, so just be ready for that ahead of time and "be prepared" to correct the spots afterwards. Are you planning to color/wet sand it after painting and then buff it out?

I can tell you that when I painted my 69 (also black) I shot it in my garage, no plastic or nothing --- I bought 4 cheapo box fans and built a wooden framework around them so they'd fit underneath my garage door. I arranged them with 3 blowing in, 1 blowing out - the idea that the net "positive pressure" inside would tend to force dust and crap -out- intead of drawing it in. I put hvac filters over the fans to filter the air they moved. It worked "fair" - meaning I guess they helped a little but I still had a lot of trash in the clear I had to deal with afterwards.







Honestly? I really couldn't "prove" they helped any at all.

I've also heard of people just painting outside in the open air and getting pretty good results, and also others putting up one of those "temporary" garages that's really just a big tent over a metal frame. With the latter you have to be careful about the material used in the awning, some of it makes a lot of lint.

If I had it to do again, and didn't have to worry about neighbors, I'd probably try the open air route, provided I could get a calm day with temps in the 75-85 degree range.

Bear
 

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I did the same thing with the box fans, only I had them all blowing out under the garage door, then I took out a window on the opposite side and put furnace filters in. Then lined the walls and benches with some rolled paper about 4' wide, two high to cover everything. Then hosed the floor down with water to keep the dust down, work very well and had only like 4 specks of dirt when I was done.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have a lot of air space in my shop....it's all metal and insulated with plastic backing....If I do the box fans all blowing out with a furnace filter will that provide adequate insulation? I was planning on trying the works. but I was going to try the trunk of the car first to see if I'm worth a crap at it. I've done a little research online about painting but not a lot. I have not decided on any of the brands or lines. I'm actually open to recommendations. I would prefer to keep it budget friendly since I'm going to be attempting the paint myself and would be very upset with myself if a botched several hundred dollars worth of paint. my only other color preference was a fire engine red color. I have black wheels and red brakes so it is either black or red. Im pretty set on black but don't know how much red would conceal imperfections over black.
 

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For a mid grade base coat clear coat plan on spending 1000-1500 in just paint primers and clear, not a couple hundred, so do your homework on body and prep thats where all the work is and what makes a GOOD paint job. Like Bear said a lot of sins in the paint can be corrected with wetsand and buff, but not if its in the underlying bodywork. I had only original paint on mine and sealed it with epoxy before starting body work if you go Black plan on basically skim coating the whole car with polyester spot filler after you take care of any major body work, and wet sanding with long blocks to laser straight before you put on multiple coats of a high build primer and do it all over again. Before you even think about spraying color you should have your primer sanded wet with 500 where you see your reflections with no waves or low spots or deep scratches when you wipe it down with water or grease remover. Then your ready to throw 800 worth of color and clear on it. I did 3 coats color and 4 coats clear then 10's of hours wetsanding to 2500 and buffing. All that being said i am glad i tackled it myself, and you will find out quickly why a GOOD body and paint job can cost 20,000 dollars.....:cheers
 

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When we did my '67 way back when, we hung up visqueen plastic and made a plastic paint booth. Watered down the shop floor. No fans. There would have been almost zero trash in the paint if I had remembered to blow out the sanding dust out of the windshield channel!!! D-oh!!! I agree with Bear on the no strip to bare metal deal....nothing seals better against rust than the factory primer and basecoat. Sand it and block it, then go for it.
 

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Randy (05 GTO) has some pics here somewhere (I think) of a temporary booth he built to paint his cars.....give him a shout. Eric :cheers
 

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From the experience gained from my uncle and his painting the biggest deal will be prep, not only the car but the area you are working in. Sweeping the floors, keeping the dust in the air to a minimum and keeping the area ventilated are just a few major things. Good luck thou and post pictures!!!
 

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virginiavenom;290997 said:
much of this car is already painted, albeit badly and over the top of factory paint. should I strip it with a chemical stripper and then move to body work and priming, or should I just give it a good sand down and go from there leaving all paint in place pretty much? car will be black.
GM cars from this vintage were painted from the factory in lacquer. If your car still has the original lacquer finish do yourself a favor and strip your car down to metal.
Lacquer paint is notorious for what they call cracking,checking, or hazing, none good.
No matter how much body work, primer, or paint you put over top of old lacquer paint it will eventually screw up the paint on top of it

Good luck
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am still debating on stripping to bare metal to know what metal is good and what needs work. so much research and learning to do. wondering if it wouldn't be worth the money to let my local dealer do the car. they are really good and reasonable. they said they could do it for about 2500-3000, could be more depending on if any body work needs to be done (probably a little)
 

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Are you saying 25-3500 to STRIP the car, or to do the whole job (bodywork and paint) ??????....that is VERY inexpensive!!!!! Becareful what you get for that amount. Eric
 

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Discussion Starter #13
it's actually a pretty big GM dealership. they said 2500-3500 to paint the car. around here things are pretty cheap. I will be sure I'm clear on what I want. with paint I'm picky. you could have 30k invested in a rust bucket body, it still looks like crap, but if you have 3k invested on the inner workings and 6-7k on a paint job, it will look so much better. any reason not to strip the car and just put a rattle can primer on it to allow body work to be started and prevent rust until it's ready?
 

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You have to strip the car or its a waste of time and $.Ther is no way of telling the condition of the metal without striping.imo
 

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it's actually a pretty big GM dealership. they said 2500-3500 to paint the car. around here things are pretty cheap. I will be sure I'm clear on what I want. with paint I'm picky. you could have 30k invested in a rust bucket body, it still looks like crap, but if you have 3k invested on the inner workings and 6-7k on a paint job, it will look so much better. any reason not to strip the car and just put a rattle can primer on it to allow body work to be started and prevent rust until it's ready?
Be aware primer is NOT impervious to moisture, so just because a car is in primer doesn't mean it won't rust. Quality matters too - there's a universe of difference between rattle can primer and a high quality epoxy primer.

Deciding on whether to strip or not is really dependent on the condition of the car now. You usually see them strip cars on all the TV shows because they're under a time crunch and they also have an unlimited budget so stripping is both faster and "easier".

Out here in the real world where we usually can take all the time we need and usually don't have bottomless pockets, it's a different story. The truth of the matter is, nothing is as good as the baked on factory primer - nothing - no matter how much you spend or how much time you put into it. So if that's intact and there's no rust problems or ugly previous repairs to deal with, it's best to keep that as your base and work up from there. Being able to accurately judge the condition of the car is the key to the whole thing. You can spot sand, poke and probe, etc. all the suspect areas to find out what you're dealing with, then make your decision based on what you find.

I'd be very suspicious of a 3500 paint job, no matter who did the work. At that price I can pretty much guarantee you that there's going to be no serious blocking or other attempts to get the car straight, it's going to consist of medium "production quality" single stage paint (no clear coat) that's designed to be fast to apply (minimal flash times between coats) that will last probably 5 to 7 years, and there's going to be no wet sanding / buffing after paint. It's probably going to be a 'scuff and shoot' deal.

Body shops and dealerships know that most people don't keep cars longer that 4 - 5 years or so, so if their paint jobs only last 5 to 7 years then their customers are going to be satisfied.

After having done my own body and paint work from bare metal up (I had the car media blasted to bare metal and I did all the work from there on), I know how much time and labor goes into a quality paint job and let me assure you, at $3500 they're not making any money at all if they go over the bare minimum on anything. I shopped for a few quotes for a high quality paint job on my GTO at some local restoration shops. The cheapest I found, and that was with me presenting them with a car that was already straight, blocked, all body/metal work done and in primer, was over $12,000 --- and that was for them to do nothing but shoot color, clear, wet sand, and buff.

Bear
 

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Respectfully, I have to disagree with Bondobill on the "strip the car to bare metal or nothing"aspect. I had a '66 stripped to bare in the early '80's and redone with a "show" finish.....and it came out beautiful with literally no visible flaws. The car had never been hit and had no rust or damage....no door dings even. Hard to believe. That said, pinhole rust started coming through the paint about ten years later, just before I sold it. All over the car. Even though it was metal -prepped. Even though it was only "in the bare" for about a day. Primer is NOT a protection against moisture. The "cheap-o" paint job on my '65 GTO was done 26-going on 27 years ago over a non stripped, factory paint/primer car, and is still doing fine with NO rust. Nothing better than the factory ecoat/primer, in my personal experience. Now, I've seen a bunch of cars that were stripped to bare metal, prepped, blocked, and painted, and they look great. Just saying that in my experience, as a guy who paints a car and then keeps it for a LONG time, the cars with the factory stuff intact underneath seem to hold up longer, at least out here in CA. I also agree that a $3500 paint job is very, very, suspicious!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
well this dealer is good, I've seen there work on a few classics, he said they will base clear and there is no rush. they don't have a high car load and as the manager said, techs learn a lot on old car refinishing and different techniques. but he said the car would be in their hands for up to 3 months. apparently it's like a spare time thing and they are tech heavy for when storms hit around in the area. that being said, I'm usually not happy if something isn't right so I'll be checking on it frequently if I decide to go that route.

if I decide to do it myself what brands and paint series do you all recommend? and primer of course. and what paint guns, I was looking at a 3 gun HVLP kit for about 280 (devilbis) (I'm horrible about that name, but people seem to be happy with them.) what other things do I need besides my compressor, which is of decent size. the body has slight rusting but chipped up locations are making me nervous, I'd rather strip it to see what I find. rather fix problems now rather than later. I'm still probably 6-8 months away from beginning body work. as a note my shop that the car lives in is insulated and climate controlled, so moisture and humidity should not be an issue. I spent good money on my shop.

how much paint would I need for the car? I'm planning on a deep gloss, no pearl or anything, just smooth black, deeper would be nice.
 

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Randy (05 GTO) has some pics here somewhere (I think) of a temporary booth he built to paint his cars.....give him a shout. Eric :cheers
Click on the "my photos" link under my avatar, my booth was 12X24 with 8 or 9 a/c filters, the air intake was on the rear top(s) of the booth and the exhaust was on the front lower section by the plastic roll up door. I had a pretty good downdraft flow.

I still have the high volume squirrel cage fan I used to pull the air thru the booth. Be cautious of the box style fans that produce electrical spark. Paint booth explosions are ugly.
 

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well this dealer is good, I've seen there work on a few classics, he said they will base clear and there is no rush. they don't have a high car load and as the manager said, techs learn a lot on old car refinishing and different techniques. but he said the car would be in their hands for up to 3 months. apparently it's like a spare time thing and they are tech heavy for when storms hit around in the area. that being said, I'm usually not happy if something isn't right so I'll be checking on it frequently if I decide to go that route.

if I decide to do it myself what brands and paint series do you all recommend? and primer of course. and what paint guns, I was looking at a 3 gun HVLP kit for about 280 (devilbis) (I'm horrible about that name, but people seem to be happy with them.) what other things do I need besides my compressor, which is of decent size. the body has slight rusting but chipped up locations are making me nervous, I'd rather strip it to see what I find. rather fix problems now rather than later. I'm still probably 6-8 months away from beginning body work. as a note my shop that the car lives in is insulated and climate controlled, so moisture and humidity should not be an issue. I spent good money on my shop.

how much paint would I need for the car? I'm planning on a deep gloss, no pearl or anything, just smooth black, deeper would be nice.
I highly recommend the Kevin Tetz "Paintucation" videos (DVD). They delve into all this stuff, and I found that I watched them over and over and over as I worked along on my car. Every time I did, I picked up on something new - usually because of the experience I'd had.

Rule of thumb: 7 oz of sprayable material for every panel on the car, per coat. After I got my car straight and ready to paint (in primer, wet sanded to 600, etc) here's what it took from there. On my 69 I shot one coat of Southern Polyurethanes Gray Epoxy primer (reduced per their instructions when used as a sealer), followed by 3 coats of PPG DBC 9700 black (with DX 57 activator), followed by 4 coats of Southern Polyurethanes Universal Clear.
Counting the fenders, doors, quarters, hood, roof, and trunk each as one panel, that's 9 panels. Using the rule of 7's, that works out to 9*3*7 = 189 ozs sprayable material for base coat. The DBC 9700 gets reduced 2:1, so that works out to 126 ozs paint and 63 ozs reducer. That's pretty close to what I actually used. The clear I used mixes 1:1 with activator. I shot 4 coats of that so that works out to 9*4*7 = 252 ozs sprayable, 126 ozs each of clear and activator. That was close too.

All the major paint manufacturers have less expensive "production" lines and also "the good stuff". I chose PPG for the base color because all my web research left me with the opinion that DBC 9700 is the blackest black there is. PPG also has a 'production' line of paint and that's their Omni brand. Dupont has Nason, I'm not sure what Sherwin Willams or BASF has. Plan on spending $300 - $500 or so per gallon for base color - much more if you're shooting red. If you're doing something fancy like a candy or a pearl, the cost can easly double or more. The clear I used works out to about $250 a gallon including reducer. The primer, including activator, was about $160 per gallon. (That's also what I used for my bare metal primer - it's very good stuff.)
Do the math and you'll see I spent close to $2000 just for what went through my spray gun, and that does not include the gallon(s) of 2k primer/surfacer or the filler I used doing the body work, blocking, and wet sanding - or the sand paper either for that matter. This stuff ain't cheap - that's why I said what I did about getting a paint job for $3500. $1500 won't even begin to pay for the amount of labor it takes to do this right.

Doing a car so that it looks very good the day it comes out of the paint shop is one thing --- doing it so that it looks just as good in 5 or 10 years, that's something else.

Bear
 

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Discussion Starter #20
your right it's not cheap, and I'm wondering with the additions of all the equipment and build costs if it would be worth it in the end for me. I'm thinking no. especially if I mess up. paintucation DVDs or not. I'll have to talk to this dealership body shop some more to find out what I'm truly looking at. sounds to me like they are doing it with cheaper materials or they get it really cheap. since it isn't going to be a body off or anything like that kind of paintjob I can live with it not being 100% perfect, but I do expect it to look pretty good. I'm not made of money and my true baby has excellent paint.
 
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