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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I have a problem but wanted to hear your thoughts.

Previously:
  • Idled very nicely at about 850 RPM
  • When I shift into Revers or Drive dropped to about 750 RPM
  • I had a very restrictive PCV Billet piece in place
  • I was not using vacuum advance.
  • Vacuum around 14"

Now:
  • Upgraded to Wagner PCV, but even with a "regular" PCV it is the same - the added airflow caused an increase in idle, so I had to turn down the idle screw. This really is not about the Wagner, I've removed it until I get this worked out and put the "regular" PCV in (Not the Billet low flow one).
  • Plumbed up the Vacuum advance that added 14 Deg. This change made a HUGE improvement in off idle response! I again had an increase in RPM, so had to bring it back down with the idle screw.
  • Now my idle needs to be about 900, and is "rough". When I shift to Drive or Reverse idle drops to around 650 RPM and not in a good way. I do have a 2400 RPM Torque Converter.
So I love my improvements, but wondering if these changes that increased Idle RPM, requiring me to slow by the idle screw, have goofed up my idle air / fuel ratio - admittedly I've never tuned that and don't know how (It's a Quadrajet, that is in very good shape, all worked over by Cliff and I've had very good luck with it).

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Ed
 

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Ed: Upgraded to Wagner PCV, but even with a "regular" PCV it is the same - the added airflow caused an increase in idle, so I had to turn down the idle screw. This really is not about the Wagner, I've removed it until I get this worked out and put the "regular" PCV in (Not the Billet low flow one).

PJ: Added "air flow" means larger vacuum leak. Vacuum leak means and increase in idle speed. I don't know anything about the Wagner, but you have to adjust them using a vacuum gauge. Follow their instructions. The PCV Valve is part of the equation.

Ed: Plumbed up the Vacuum advance that added 14 Deg.

PJ: Added 14 degrees to your base - balancer timing PLUS the 14 degrees =? Or you now have 14 degrees total with the vacuum connected? Not clear. If you had 9 degrees advance on the balancer and added 14 degrees via the vacuum advance, your timing at idle is 9 + 14 = 23 degrees and it is possible that this is too much and the engine does not like it. IF this is what you have, 23 degrees, drop the Initial down to 6 degrees on the balancer and then connect the advance, 6 + 14 = 20 degrees. Typically 19-21 degrees at idle with the vacuum advance hooked up is where you want to be.

If the vacuum advance is connected to a manifold source, engine vacuum pulls it in to advance the distributor and idle will go up. You could connect the vacuum line to a "ported" source on the carb if you have one - it will be the nipple that pulls vacuum above the throttle blades versus the nipple that pull engine vacuum below the throttle blades.

Ed: Now my idle needs to be about 900, and is "rough". When I shift to Drive or Reverse idle drops to around 650 RPM and not in a good way.

PJ: Drop from 900 to 650 is too harsh. 650 may be what you want, but it may also be too low for your cam. You don't want to go too much lower as you need some RPM's to keep oil pump pressure/flow up. With the 2400 stall, I would think you should not have a harsh engagement putting it into drive or reverse.

Being 900 RPM's may be because of the PCV valve - remember it acts like a vacuum leak and idle speed will go up. The additional advance of your timing can cause engine idle speeds to increase - but off idle response becomes improved as long as the engine is not experiencing any pinging/detonation.

I adjust my idle mixture screws by ear. Begin by gently turning each screw in until it bottoms - do not force them in tight, as soon as you feel it stop, you stop. Then screw each idle mixture screw out 2 1/2 turns for the initial setting. Start the engine. Then adjust one screw by listening to the engine sound. First back the screw out and listen for the engine to get smoother. It may or may not when backing out, but usually does. You are adding more fuel. Should not have to go more than 2 turns out at most. Then screw the mixture screw in slowly until the engine begins to run rough - you will hear it. When it does, stop. Now back the screw out just enough to get the engine to run smooth again and stop. That mixture screw is now adjusted.

Repeat the process with the other mixture screw and get it adjusted. Engine should be running fairly smooth. Now adjust your idle speed - making sure the choke is wide open and the adjustment screw is on the lowest point on the the cam the screw rides on. Now adjust your idle while in gear. You might want to have a helper put a foot on the brakes so the car doesn't move forward. Adjusting in Park/Neutral and then dropping into gear, checking, and repeating until you get 650-750 RPM's is not a good way to do this. Get a helper.

If the engine runs a little rough in gear, back out each idle mixture screw 1/2 turn to richen up the idle circuit and see if it smooths out.

Then see what you have and if it improves anything.

So get the PCV valve working correctly.

Decide how you want to connect the vacuum advance - direct manifold vacuum or ported.

Adjust the idle mixture screws.

Drop car in gear and adjust idle speed and idle mixture screws if needed.

Then see if that improved things.

You can adjust the carb using a vacuum gauge, but I use my ear. You vacuum at 14" Hg is a bit low. Stock is closer to 20" and 14" could indicate a vacuum leak, timing off, or big cam. So you can use vacuum readings as a tool if needed if none of this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Hi Jim, thank you very much, I sometimes don’t do a good job explaining or offer enough information, so let me try to fill in some pieces.

my engine is a 461 stroker, with a 236/242 at .050” cam, 112 LSA. So not totally radical, but definitely loopy. 14 to 17 inches is very normal for me.

to be clear, before I made the modifications listed, the engine idled great. Honestly, I can remove these modifications (new PCV and Vacuum advance) and it goes back to idling great, but I don’t want to! to be even more clear, none of this has to do with off idle. Off idle the engine runs awesome!

regarding timing, my all in timing is set at 36°, which results in a base timing of around 13 or 14°. This has run very well for me for a long time, and only recently did I plug in my vacuum advance, which adds 14° to the base timing. I am using a manifold vacuum for that. Like I mentioned, the car still runs, so I was able to take it out, and my just off idle response is much, much improved! She really seems to like that extra advance at idle, and I’d like to leave it there if possible. I have absolutely no sign of detonation. At any speed, or in any circumstance. With that said, when I added the vacuum advance, it did bring up the idle rpm, which is to be expected, to compensate I of course had to bring idle speed down with the idle speed adjustment screw.

regarding the PCV, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Wagner at all because right now that is not in the equation. The important point is that I moved from my previous junk PCV that I now know was hardly flowing at all, to a normal PCV, which is flowing a great deal more. When I changed PCVs, that additional airflow again caused my idol to increase a lot, so again, I decreased it with the idle screw.

So I guess with all of that said my question is what effect adding the added vacuum advance has on my idle air to fuel mixture, and what effect adding the much increased airflow of the pcv has as well? I’m assuming it would drive it to be lean, so I think I need to work with adjusting the idle mixture now. As a side bar, once all of this is complete, I’ll go back to putting in the Wagner.

maybe another question, is if it is a symptom of a lean idle mixture, if going from Park to gear results in a huge drop in rpm? Thanks for your response.
 

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Hi Jim, thank you very much, I sometimes don’t do a good job explaining or offer enough information, so let me try to fill in some pieces.

my engine is a 461 stroker, with a 236/242 at .050” cam, 112 LSA. So not totally radical, but definitely loopy. 14 to 17 inches is very normal for me.

to be clear, before I made the modifications listed, the engine idled great. Honestly, I can remove these modifications (new PCV and Vacuum advance) and it goes back to idling great, but I don’t want to! to be even more clear, none of this has to do with off idle. Off idle the engine runs awesome!

regarding timing, my all in timing is set at 36°, which results in a base timing of around 13 or 14°. This has run very well for me for a long time, and only recently did I plug in my vacuum advance, which adds 14° to the base timing. I am using a manifold vacuum for that. Like I mentioned, the car still runs, so I was able to take it out, and my just off idle response is much, much improved! She really seems to like that extra advance at idle, and I’d like to leave it there if possible. I have absolutely no sign of detonation. At any speed, or in any circumstance. With that said, when I added the vacuum advance, it did bring up the idle rpm, which is to be expected, to compensate I of course had to bring idle speed down with the idle speed adjustment screw.

regarding the PCV, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Wagner at all because right now that is not in the equation. The important point is that I moved from my previous junk PCV that I now know was hardly flowing at all, to a normal PCV, which is flowing a great deal more. When I changed PCVs, that additional airflow again caused my idol to increase a lot, so again, I decreased it with the idle screw.

So I guess with all of that said my question is what effect adding the added vacuum advance has on my idle air to fuel mixture, and what effect adding the much increased airflow of the pcv has as well? I’m assuming it would drive it to be lean, so I think I need to work with adjusting the idle mixture now. As a side bar, once all of this is complete, I’ll go back to putting in the Wagner.

maybe another question, is if it is a symptom of a lean idle mixture, if going from Park to gear results in a huge drop in rpm? Thanks for your response.
Ed:

OK, you yourself said the PCV valve changed your idle speed - so how can this not be part of the problem/solution?

The restrictive billet PCV valve and no vacuum advance had the engine idling good as you said. Then you installed a different PCV valve that now flows more. Without connecting the vacuum advance line, did the better flowing PCV valve have an affect on idle speed? IF so, then as I pointed out, this acts as a vacuum leak - more air without additional gas to compensate. So let's back up and isolate the problem beginning with the PCV valve. Install the billet one first, no vacuum advance - as this had the engine running where it was good before you began to change things.

1.) To test the PCV valve and its function, my Pontiac book state to pinch off the hose. Engine RPM should drop 60 RPM's. If no drop, then the PCV valve is plugged or not functioning. If the drop is ecessive, then the PCV's calibrated air valve is incorrect for your application. PCV valves can be specific to each engine type/family and HP rating. This is why the Wagner works for many because it can be adjusted rather than flat out get the wrong PCV valve for your application.
So note, pinching off the PCV valve drops the engine idle RPM's. Conversely, with the PCV valve open and working correctly, the engine RPM's increase - so the PCV valve is a factor in RPM increase or drop. As I stated, it acts as a vacuum leak and can increase engine RPM's. Some bypass the carb use and pull the PCV valve off the oil filler cap or valve cover. You can simply plug the PCV valve hose off for the time being to eliminate the "vacuum leak" Just make sure you have breather (s) or breather tube on your valve covers so the internal engine pressure can escape. Should not be an issue as you are only revving the engine at lower RPM's. Would not do this with higher RPM's.

You can also check for any other vacuum leak by pinching off the hose, such as the hose going to the power brake booster if you are running power brakes. Disconnecting/plugging the vacuum advance hose is simple enough and take that vacuum source out of the picture.

2.) With the billet PCV valve, connect the vacuum advance line. Did this cause the engine idle RPM to increase and run rough? If so, then make note of this change.

3.) Remove/plug the vacuum advance again. Now install the higher flowing PCV valve. Does the engine idle increase and the engine run rough? If so, take note. Now connect the vacuum advance. Does the engine idle increase and run rough?

4.) So this should narrow down where the biggest changes are taking place, billet PCV/no vacuum advance, billet PCV/vacuum advance. Higher flow PCV/no vacuum advance, High flow PCV valve/vacuum advance. Look at the results and you should be able to figure out if it is the PCV valve giving you the issue or the vacuum advance, or a combination of the 2.

Check trans fluid level.

Shift force is a function of line pressure which is controlled by the vacuum modulator. Low engine vacuum can affect the function of the vacuum modulator. Recheck your vacuum line to the trans and make sure the hoses are new, no leaks. A bad vacuum modulator could also be an issue.

How low can you drop your idle while in Park? Can you get it down to 650-700 RPM's or does it stall? Get you idle down and then drop it in Drive, and see what the RPM's are, you should not get a big drop.

You can play around with the idle mixture screws as I outlined to make the idle circuit more rich and see what that effect has on the idle speed.
(y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Jim, thank you very much for taking the time to write this! Actually, I did sneak out of work a bit earlier today, and did much of what you said, trial by elimination. I have learned a few things today.

1) never make two significant changes to your engine at the same time! Debugging and figuring out what affects what, and what interplay they might have is not a good idea!

2) OK, to start with here’s the deal, my engine loves the extra advance on, and just off of idle! The pick up is notably improved! But here comes the rub. My engine idle does not like it at all! Simply put, all other things being equal, when the vacuum advance is utilized from manifold, there is about a 300 drop in RPM when I put it in gear. When it is not connected, there is no such drop, or maybe about 100 or so normal. Again, all other things are equal, in both cases I set the RPM the same. Why is this? Lots of reading, but what I believe to be true, is in my case with a bit of a cam, fairly low vacuum (14”) , when the car is put into drive I lose enough speed and vacuum to translates into loss of vacuum advance, translating into loss of rpm and in turn vacuum, and into loso of RPM, etc. This is well outlined in cliffs book under “ported or not ported?“. So of course I would prefer to use this advance with manifold vacuum, but will settle for second best, as I have found a ported place on the carburetor. I’m still seeing significant improvement in performance, but obviously the advance doesn’t happen until the blades start to open. Now my rpm drop when I go into gear is about 150 as it should be.

I know that we have argued about ported versus non-ported since the dawn of time, but I just know in my circumstance, with my cam, this is what’s happening. Again, the vacuum advance is a DUI, 14° total.

So now to the PCV, on top of this I put the Wagner in at the same time which as you said, flows a lot more than the standard PCV valve. To be clear, my billet valve hardly flowed anything at all. I also have a standard seven dollar Butler PCV valve, that clearly flows a good bit, and then lastly I have the Wagner valve. In any case the Wagner valve works fine, if I don’t mess around with manifold vacuum to my vacuum advance.


I don’t know if this makes sense, but I do take your advice, and have played a bit around with pinching off lines, and looking for leaks, of which I can absolutely find nothing. Sprayed a lot of brake cleaner on joints as well!

thanks Jim!
 

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Why not add more initial timing and see if it improves? That's what I did on mine and it loved it.

Then so long as you don't detonate at wot, your additional timing is fine... and if you do get detonation at wot, you can limit the total, but still keep the higher initial.

Also the improved vac can will help with much less vacuum required for full vac advance
 

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Why not add more initial timing and see if it improves? That's what I did on mine and it loved it.

Then so long as you don't detonate at wot, your additional timing is fine... and if you do get detonation at wot, you can limit the total, but still keep the higher initial.

Also the improved vac can will help with much less vacuum required for full vac advance

Hmmmm. He has 14 degrees at the balancer. PLUS 14 degrees of vacuum advance with manifold vacuum. 14 + 14 = 28 degrees at idle. You think he should add more balancer advance? His Total is 36 degrees.

So if for example he bumps his Initial from 14 to 20, his vacuum advance move up the same amount 6 degees. So now his idle timing would be 34 degrees of advance.

Same goes for the Total advance, 20 degrees at the balancer means an additional 6 degrees added to the Total advance, 36 + 6 = 42 degrees.

Who is buying the new rod bearings or maybe an engine?

My opinion, 28 degrees at idle is too much and should be limited to around 22 degrees with a vacuum advance stop. The 36 degrees Total is fine as long as no detonation.

Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable. The Echlin #VC-1810 advance can ( NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

The vacuum advance can in your DUI distributor may indeed be the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hey guys, so Jim, I think you hit it on the head, the problem with mediocre vacuum like I have is the can then fluctuates based on minor fluctuations in vacuum such as dropping in gear, and that causes me to chase it in circles! I found a ported port so I’m good there. But I did learn some thing, you guys might find interesting.

generally speaking, I knew something didn’t feel right, my Wagner wasn’t tuning properly, but idle just felt wrong. Remember I said that my base was set to 14°? Well it was a few days ago. However apparently since I started using the vacuum advance on my dui performance distributor, which has never been used before at all, after a few gyrations, it found a new home. The home, without vacuum of course, turned out to be about 11 to 12° initial timing! So I went in, tweaked back to my full 14, actually 15 for good measure, and suddenly things are much more tunable! amazing the difference 4° can make! Knock on wood, I’ll see how she’s running in the morning, but now I curb idle at about 850 or 875, in gear it’ll drop to about 730, just perfect. In between the Wagner, and my newfound vacuum advance off idle, the acceleration increase is tremendously noticeable! Again, I’ll see how it goes tomorrow and report in. Thanks everybody!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I assumed that army was saying just to advance without manifold vacuum can being added, which in effect I kind of did, since I added ported vacuum, and got back up to 15° at least at idle. Obviously it can handle a great deal more at idle, but then my all in advance would be too high. I really hate to push it, this engine is at about 10.25 compression, and without 93 octane will detonate. I didn’t wanna push the all in advance to much higher.
 

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I assumed that army was saying just to advance without manifold vacuum can being added, which in effect I kind of did, since I added ported vacuum, and got back up to 15° at least at idle. Obviously it can handle a great deal more at idle, but then my all in advance would be too high. I really hate to push it, this engine is at about 10.25 compression, and without 93 octane will detonate. I didn’t wanna push the all in advance to much higher.
Each engine is different. Some do respond better using the "ported" vacuum source so the idle timing does not shoot up real high as it will when using manifold vacuum on the vacuum advance. Others, like the manifold vacuum and increase in idle timing. But it does depend on where the Initial timing is set on the balancer and how much extra the vacuum advance adds to that.

Sounds like you got it, just keep away from any detonation or you can do damage to that engine. (y)
 

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Hmmmm. He has 14 degrees at the balancer. PLUS 14 degrees of vacuum advance with manifold vacuum. 14 + 14 = 28 degrees at idle. You think he should add more balancer advance? His Total is 36 degrees.
I didnt see that he actually verified the 14 at the can. It was my understanding that he was just quoting a spec, so I was guessing that he could have a generic 14 vac advance can, but was never pulling enough to actually achieve it.

That's what was happening to me, and why everyone recommended the can that came all in at 9hg.

If he verified that, then I missed it.
 

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I assumed that army was saying just to advance without manifold vacuum can being added, which in effect I kind of did, since I added ported vacuum, and got back up to 15° at least at idle. Obviously it can handle a great deal more at idle, but then my all in advance would be too high. I really hate to push it, this engine is at about 10.25 compression, and without 93 octane will detonate. I didn’t wanna push the all in advance to much higher.
Yes, I was saying to test and verify. Advancing base timing to see if things smooth out.

It sounds to me that your vac is too low for that cam, but as Jim said, all engines are different.

My point was, Lars and Lemans Guy consistently suggest using a specific vac can, which is all in at a very low vacuum. They also both post that most of those adjustable cans are inconsistent and junk.

So, if you were merely assuming you were getting 14 degrees of vac advance, then I thought you should check it.

I spent a year and went through three dizzys and four cans, before I found my happy timing.
 

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Lots of reading, but what I believe to be true, is in my case with a bit of a cam, fairly low vacuum (14”) , when the car is put into drive I lose enough speed and vacuum to translates into loss of vacuum advance, translating into loss of rpm and in turn vacuum
That's why everyone recommends changing the can to one that's all in at a very low vac. Maybe 6
 

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I didnt see that he actually verified the 14 at the can. It was my understanding that he was just quoting a spec, so I was guessing that he could have a generic 14 vac advance can, but was never pulling enough to actually achieve it.

That's what was happening to me, and why everyone recommended the can that came all in at 9hg.

If he verified that, then I missed it.
From my reading, rule of thumb is: "Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable."

"GM made an assortment of vacuum cans based on the engine, cam, and engine's vacuum. Grandma's Pontiac would not have the same vacuum can as an L88 BB Chevy, but you can interchange them. These canisters have different vacuum ratings. One might have a vacuum advance that begins to pull at 3"-5" of vacuum and only gives you 8 degrees maximum advance on a big cam engine pulling 10" of manifold vacuum while another might have the vacuum advance begin to pull at 6"-8" of vacuum, gives 14-16 degrees of maximum advance at a high of 24" of manifold vacuum. So it is possible to find a vacuum canister that will work if you are willing to experiment."

Points type distributor vacuum cans are different from the factory HEI distributor vacuum cans - they do not interchange, so make sure you get the can for your distributor type.

These are for points type distributors, but there are many more factory cans:

The NAPA/Echlin VC1810/B28 specs - 0 @ 4Hg", 16 degrees [email protected] 8Hg" of vacuum.
The NAPA Echlin VC680/B1 specs - 0 @ 8Hg", 16 degrees @ 16Hg".
The NAPA Echlin VC1765/B20 specs - 0 @ 6Hg" and 16 degrees @ 12Hg".

(FYI: Check RockAuto for vacuum cans as I got mine there and it was cheaper)

If your engine exhibits a momentary detonation when transitioning from cruise to WOT this slightly less aggressive cannister (B20) might lessen or eliminate it while still providing full vacuum advance at idle.

Some of these cans can provide too much advance and can be limited by using a stop or an adjustable stop. You can fab your own or purchase one of the aftermarket versions.

From another race website:

"If the engine has too much mechanical advance, then you need to limit the amount of advance inside the distributor and give it more “initial” timing on the crank to achieve the 34-36 degrees of desired total. I usually like to see about 10 – 14 degrees in the distributor and the rest on the crank in most performance engines.
Most stock distributors are set to get full mechanical advance at about 4,000 RPM. You want all of your advance in at about 2,400 RPM. 3,000 is too high, 2,000 “might be” a bit low, so somewhere in there is where you want to be. Not having full advance at or below 3,000 RPM is pretty useless considering an engine needs its advance to run at its best and to get that car moving. Stock, or un-curved, distributors that don’t see full advance until 4,000 – 4,500 RPM are a bit late in most cars and WILL cause your car to not move off the line or accelerate very well below it’s full advance RPM. The trick is to know how much advance you have, and WHEN it comes in. If it comes-in too late, then you need to change the springs and maybe even the weights to make it come-in sooner. If it has too much advance, then you need to limit the amount of advance inside the distributor and give it more “initial” timing on the crank."

This may hold up as a rule of thumb for most engines, but keep in mind that you may also have to adjust your timing and timing curve to prevent detonation. Increasing octane is the way to go to prevent detonation, and retarding the timing to prevent detonation may not be the answer as you will lose power and the engine will run hot. The better route, as often noted on the forum, is to lower the compression ratio and then you can maximize your timing and timing curve for that lowered compression and be able to run on lower octane pump gas with very little loss of HP as compared to the higher compression when run with the correct octane to run high compression. Retard the high compression engine because it "pings" and you lose power and it is no longer maximized for HP - so the drop in HP may be what you will have with a low compression engine with its maximized timing/timing curve running on pump gas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks all, my distributor is a DUI, performance distributors. I spoke specifically with Gene about how much advance to expect, and his reply was 14°. Through my experimentation I also found to be 14°. This is not from specifications.

I just assumed that since this distributor comes from there, that their advance can is the only one available to me. I did ask him if he has any idea at what vacuum the advance is fully engaged, hope to hear back soon. But in any case, I think I’m in good shape currently. Thanks for all the responses.
 

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That was exactly my point. I have used Davis DUI's, and no, you dont need to use thier can... and yes, it is one of the "adjustable" types, which most experts will tell you to toss.

A Davis DUI can is adjustable for how much advance you can get, but not for "when" you get it.You can get another can that pulls the 14 degrees you want, but at a much lower hg!

My fear was that you read the can specs to be 14 and just assumed you were getting them. But if you actually test it to determine that, then my advice was irrelevant.

That being said, I would still get the can that pulls all in at a lower vacuum!
 
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