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Discussion Starter #1
This is my opinion, and just my opinion, in response to those who have done or are thinking of doing the modern day Chevy LS series small block engine swap into the first generation GTO "A-Body.":banghead: Being 55 years of age, I did not experience the "muscle car era" as it unfolded, but rather, reaped the benifits following that era in the late 1970's and early 1980's when these cars were somewhat worn out and abused, gas prices were going up, and they sold for cheap if they had not already been scrapped out. Pontiacs, and later the GTO, was my car of choice.:thumbsup:
The hi-performance car was not invented by Pontiac nor its engineers as they have always been around. When the first GTO was introduced as an option on the Lemans, it was innovative. But this innovation was more about creating a meaning for the GTO than the GTO itself. It was the advertising and marketing genius of Jim Wangers who took his vision of a "super car" and created that meaning. It was then Pontiac chief engineer John DeLorean who turned out the GTO based on a concept with no guarantees that this concept was going to work in practice.
The first 1964 GTO was built around the horsepower and torque of the Pontiac 389 engine. The engineers knew that this casting had the potential to be enlarged to 400, 421, 428, and 455 cubic inches. This engine, with its assorted horsepower and torque ratings was the GTO. Even those who were not GTO savvy knew enough to ask, 389 or 400?
The GTO was an icon of the muscle car era that needed no introduction as it brought to mind the vivid image of horsepower & speed. It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words and with the sight of a GTO, there were not only words, but also, an excitement of the senses as you listened to the rumble of the dual exhaust either at idle or rowing through the gears.
Being fortunate enough to own several GTO's and other Pontiac cars of that era, it was all about horsepower and the Pontiac engine under the hood. The factory engine on the street really did not need a lot of tweaking as there was never any problems putting down rubber or taking on a would be challenger in his Chevelle, Ford, Mopar, or AMC. One might simply fine tune the engine or add a tri-power, a Torker intake, a Holley carb, Mallory dual points, or headers to root out a few more horsepower without going into the engine. These add-ons seemed to work if one was so inclined. Money back then was as tight as it is today and parts that were seemingly cheap by todays standards were expensive. So the factory engine with all its factory horsepower and torque made the GTO desirable when matched against the more readily available small blocks installed in the "other" makes. Big blocks were not all that common with the exception of the Road Runners or Chargers and their 383's.
Fast forward to today and we have seen the recent introduction of the second generation Holden GTO and its corporate small block Chevy LS series engines. Once again, the image of the GTO is built around the engine, but the first generation GTO with its legendary Pontiac manufactured engine is not the same as the second generation GTO and its Chevy engine. It is the old apples and oranges comparison when viewing the old GTO with the new GTO......only the name is the same.:wink2:
As of late, the term "resto-mod" seems to have incorporated the approval of installing the later model LS Chevy small block engines into the engine bay of the earlier GTO. This is where I draw the line. I just want to snatch those GTO keys out of your hands, and tell you that you're just not yet responsible enough to own that GTO.:nono: There is a reverence unspoken that simply "is" and words cannot express. Either you get it, or you don't. Maybe its simply because I was there, because I lived through that tail-end of the muscle car era.:smile2:
As stated earlier, the GTO was built around the performance of the Pontiac engine. Chevy engines were installed in Canadian built Pontiacs and were given a completely different name, Beaumont. If you want to install an LS engine in your GTO, then buy a Canadian Beaumont. Unbelievably, I am even ok with the LS swap in a Lemans or Tempest, but not a GTO.:nonod: Would you install the Chevy LS engine in a Boss Mustang, Hemi Cuda, Buick GSX, Olds 442, or AMX? Install one in a Road Runner and pop the hood at a car show and let's see what kind of reactions you get.:eek2: The only reason anyone thinks it is cool is because they would not know the difference between a Model A engine and a Pontiac engine anyway. They simply think that all the chrome, polished aluminum, braided steel lines, and multi-colored do-dads is what its all about. But those of us who know our Pontiacs, shudder with agony and outstretch our arms to the heavens and shout out "why?":cryin:
I don't have a problem when it comes to body modifications, brake and suspension upgrades, transmission swaps, 18" rims, or interior changes. I'm even good with modifying the Pontiac engine anyway you like, old school or with contemporary electronics and fuel injection:bannana:.......but a GTO has to have a Pontiac block using factory or aftermarket fitted Pontiac parts -no exceptions.
So if you ask me what I think of the Chevy LS small block swap in a first generation GTO, you will probably watch my nostrils flare out, my face contort and redden, my body twitch, and hear the soliloquy of a few choice words escape my vocal chords that will inevitably let you know of my disapproval. And you won't hear me weenie out and say, "well its your car and you can build it any way you want." If it's a muscle car era GTO, it's gotta be Pontiac powered..........or just give me the keys. Pontiac built excitement, not Chevy powered muscle car era GTO's.:nonod:
 

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If you have a 64-74 GTO that is numbers matching or restored back to spec with the correct engine, I would agree.
Technically the LSx motors are GM not Chevy. These motors will fit a GTO, Camaro, G8 or Corvette and produce the same power/torque with only minor differences.
I see a lot of first gen goats being redone into pro touring and resto mod because it is cheaper to do and more dependable. Don't get me wrong, I love first gen power plants and that "old school" muscle. It all depends on the condition of the car when purchased and the plan to put it on the road.
 

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Jim I agree wholeheartedly with 99% of what you said there. Except the part about putting an ls in a LeMans or Tempest. Pontiac is Pontiac ... Firebird or Grand Prix or LeMans or Bonne ... They all deserve the heart of a poncho. I will also take to task the belief that a classic drivetrain "all Pontiac" can't be reliable or or isn't reliable simply because newer tech is easier. A well maintained Pontiac engine will run for 100 thousand miles without incident. More if let it. The availability of foreign model cars got this country into a very lazy mindset. Drive it and dispose of it is a lot easier than owning loving and respecting your ride. Pontiac is about an emotional connection to your car. A connection to the road. Its a member of the family and part of the event, the vacation, the weekend cruise, the movie night, what have you. I have owned an ls gto, and no it ain't the same. It's a nice sporty comfortable car. But its not a goat. So Jim I stand with you against anyone who thinks a Chevy sb or ls or anything other than a poncho belonging under the hood of a classic Pontiac.
 

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I have always felt that the whole point of the hot rod culture was to put a more modern drive train into an older car. I am only 38 so I am much younger than most that own these classic era Pontiacs, but I have always loved the hot rod scene. Back in the day you would buy an old model T and swap in a flat head V8 and have instant hot rod. The resto mods that are being built today are based on the same idea and I personally love seeing them. One of the coolest cars I have seen at a local cruise night was a 37 Plymouth with a in-line six turbo engine out of a Datsun. You can't tell me that isn't cool. I look at the LS swaps the same way. The only thing I can't figure out is why someone would go through the hassle of doing such a swap and then run a carb. To me it defeats the purpose.

I don't think that the typical LS swap is done on an all matching high dollar GTO (or Chevelle SS, or 442, or GS, etc). I think it's typically done as part of a restoration on a car of questionable pedigree or a clone project. To me, no harm no foul. Build what you want. I think what the older crowd doesn't get is these resto mods (and to a greater extent the tuner cars) are what will keep the car culture alive into the future.

So crustysack, love your LS swap, don't agree with you about red cars. My car was originally green so I look at the red as a vast improvement!
 

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Thats the point about my opinion on color- no one has to agree with me. I dont get a contorted face:crazy: or flare my nostrils:mad2: when any red car goes by- I just dont like the color- dont really like cats :peeved:either,or brussel sprouts :smash:, or sweet potatoes :nono:,or Justin Bieber:confused: but I know a lot of people who do and I dont hate :boxing_smiley:eek:n them because they like other things than me.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I get it. Key word is "cheap." The LS series small block is an extension of the Chevy small block and if you want to somehow tie the word "corporate GM engine" to it and believe it isn't a Chevy......that's OK. The Pontiac division made heads to slap on a big block Chevy that had "Pontiac" logo on them and this somehow made it a Pontiac engine. If you want to believe your Big Block Chevy is a Pontiac with the addition of these heads.....then you are too young to appreciate or know what a true Pontiac engine is all about -but you can if you keep with the factory Pontiac engine family. The "Pontiac" Solstice used an Opel engine. I don't consider that much in line with a Pontiac product.

The term "hot rod" is generally referred to those modified cars of the 1950's and earlier, with most being of the 1920-1940's body styles. The aim was of course to increase speed and performance through engine hop-up goodies or larger more powerful engines that replaced the low powered stock drivetrains -and body mods.:thumbsup: Auto manufacturers jumped on the band wagon in the mid-fifties by adding performance goodies to the engines like dual quads(Chevy,Caddy,Packard,Pontiac), tri-power(Pontiac,Caddy,Olds), fuel injection(Chevy,Pontiac), and superchargers (Studebaker-remember those?). This was the beginning of the high-performance factory "hot-rod." I don't classify what is termed a "muscle car" as a "hot-rod" even if you stick some other engine in it -it will always be a "muscle car" as it represents a time/niche in history when such powerful and aggressive cars were cranked right off the production line. To defend your position and reclassify a GTO "muscle car" as a "hot-rod" or slip in that ever current "resto-mod" term because one installed a Chevy LS engine into it would be like taking a 1937 Harley Davidson and restoring it with a Yamaha engine because it was cheaper, more reliable, far more faster, and parts are available.:banghead: That poor Harley would never be a "hot-rod" or "resto-mod" no matter how convinced you were. That classic Harley would simply be ruined.:frown2:

Yes, to build a Pontiac engine can indeed be pricey IF you want to make horsepower far above the factory numbers, but then again, have you ever had the experience of hammering on a 360HP 400CI 4-speed GTO?:thumbsup: Have you ever heard the deep drone of the big secondaries popping open on a Q-jet that had an open element air cleaner or the factory top lid reversed? (best done in a nice long tunnel for effect!:bigSmile:) Have you ever experienced dropping that His&Hers automatic stick into the manual quadrant and going through the gears to hear that chirp of tire rubber as the TH-400 snapped from first to second on your command?:thumbsup: Try running around town with the hood removed so all can see those "this Pontiac mean business" shiny chrome air cleaners on your tri-power and those chrome valve covers.:thumbsup: The factory GTO engine IS fast.

Now once you feel that the factory 350-360HP isn't enough and you get swept into the dream that somehow you won't be satisfied with those numbers and you need at least 450-550HP, then your budget will begin to soar out of sight. Now we are talking expensive and I would venture to say that even producing those HP numbers from a Chevy small block would also be just as pricey. So now when I begin to look at the apples and oranges comparison, the factory Pontiac engine installation doesn't look so unreasonable.:smile2:

I fear that some would think taking the supercharged straight-eight out of a Duesenburg and swapping in an LS small block would be cool.:nono:
 

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My two cents. I have a resto/mod. Or half way done with one depends on how you see it. I dropped a 428 and I have the fuel injection kit to swap out. Thought long and hard about what motor to put in. And still might pull the trigger on a supercharged lsx my buddy has. It's a tough call but I understand your point about pontiac power pontiac car. That's why I stayed with the 428. I didn't put a 455 in because one model year from mine came with the 455. I am 33 I grew up in mid Michigan when they closed most the gm plants down. Like many families we struggled so I watched my dad swap motors in his chevell uncle scrap his gto. My gto to me is what my family worked for what they built. As long as your keeping it American muscle swap it tear it down build it up. We may disagree but the car and era is still alive
 

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OK.....everybody on this forum knows I like to foist my opinion.....so here goes: Jim, I am 2 years your junior, and grew up during the same era. I remember these cars when they were new, and still have the Hot Rod magazine I bought in third grade that introduced the "HOT '70 models. My first ride in a performance Pontiac was terrifying, and it made an impression on me. On my second ride in a high performance Pontiac (66 GTO 4 speed), I ended up driving that car home as its new owner. Ask anybody our age or older, like Bear, what the seminal moment was, and we'll have a story. Bear's first GTO experience is located on line somewhere, and is a must read. Point is, these are OUR memories when WE came of age.....when there were no LS engines, computers, cell phones, etc. We are from a different era, and we want to feel that era when we drive our Pontiacs. I know I feel like a kid every time I get behind the wheel and bang gears. I get the same noise, smells, and brutal torque that only a Pontiac can deliver. That's my thing. My preference. I agree with 99.9 % of what you say. The thing is, there are a lot of sharp YOUNG guys in their 20's-40's who grew up in a different era. They have no first memories of a tripower wailing on a dark back road. They are buying affordable rollers, and customizing them to their interpretation. Some of them do fantastic work. Again, not my 'thing', but man, look at Crusty's ride. Pretty darn stunning. I too think a hot rod is primarily a pre war car warmed up a bit. Not a muscle car. A muscle car is a muscle car, going back to at least 1936, when Buick put the large Roadmaster engine into the light Special body and called it a Century. I like either original, or 'Day Two' musclecars, and I like the kind of hot rods I saw as a kid, and still see here in the central valley: tuck and roll naugahide interiors, period steering wheels, nailhead Buick, Olds, or Flathead power, and NO BILLET or BOYD anything. Old school stuff. Because I'm and old school guy. I get it. To me, putting an LS in a Pontiac is like putting a Kawasaki Z1 engine in a '47 Harley. The whole context of the machine is changed. Entirely. Some folks like that, though. They like the performance. I am more of a romantic, and prefer the rumble, the nostalgia, and the feeling that only a Pontiac engine can provide.
 

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I'm 25 years old and I wouldn't dare drop anything into my 70 GTO current restoration project other than good old fashioned Poncho Power. I think people who say the LS engine is more reliable don't know how to properly tune and tweak a carbureted engine. Quadrajets when set up correctly are as close to fuel injection reliability as you can get, and with simple bolt on applications like HEI, any old-school Pontiac engine should be more than reliable. Granted, I also believe everyone should build their car however they want, but if you pop the hood and I see anything but a beautiful blue Pontiac block, I've just lost 100% interest in your car. Have fun with it, but I could care less anymore.
 

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Recently at a car show someone had a new Challenger with the hood up and I had never had a chance to see one of these up close. I was so disappointed in the engine bay. All there was to see is plastic and I never did see an engine in there. I'm sure it was quick but the engine bay did not have the look of the old. All the police departments in my area have the new Hemi Chargers and when they go after the speeders you can hear the officer flooring the engine to catch them and it sounds like it has some power put nothing like the sound of the old Mopar's 6 pack or the old GTO's tri-pwr.
 

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Here's my "thing". PERSONALLY, I'm already as "sick" of LS engines as I ever was of chevy small blocks (and trust me, that was heap big spewing chunks sick :D).

That's my opinion for myself. I wouldn't build one, I wouldn't buy one that someone else had built.

HOWEVER - I also don't expect anyone else to agree with me or share my opinion just because it's mine. I see Crusty's car and appreciate it tons. It's as nice of a build as there is out there LS or not. He did it "right", and I don't think he has any apologies to make to me or anyone else. He did the work, spent the cash, and that means he gets to make the choices.

My car runs "pretty good", but there's no doubt that Alky's BBC'ed 69 would eat my car alive and spit out the bones. If we ever find ourselves in the same place at the same time, I'll be the one hiding in the corner.

These cars are as much art form and self expression as is music, art, or anything else. Everyone has their own personal tastes and that's just fine.

If you're the kind of person who needs everyone else's approval before you can make up your mind about what you like and don't like, then perhaps you're better suited for political office than you are for building cars... :D



Bear
 

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When I see cars and hear talk of LS swaps I get the same reaction, "Me Too!!!" Although, with a right hand raised, I'd shamelessly plop a big block Chevy engine in a purpose-built GTO race car. In order to give deserved reverence to it I'd paint the block Pontiac blue and be sure to run finned aluminum valve covers. On the street? I get another reaction, and once done with mine I'm sure it will dominate the experience. "HA HA HA!! I got a REAL Poncho monster under the hood!" "Hey man, that car sounds mean. Is it an LS?" "Sorry kid, that's real muscle under there, not some sterilized version from today." I'm 2yrs senior to the OP and can relate 100% to his memories of used muscle. My past rides read like a who's who of the time. 70 LS5 Chevelle, 70 383 Cuda, 68 GT500KR, 69 Firebird with a 400 transplant, 70 GTO 400 auto w/air (73 400 engine), 69 440 4spd GTX, 69 390HP 427 Vette, and the one I miss the most, a gennie 69 Boss 302. Some were modded, some were bastardized before I got em, some were 100% OEM and "just right". Not once did I feel the need to drop the flavor of the time modern engine between the fenders. For a long time it was the Tuned Port SBCs, then it was the LT-1, now we're in LS phase. For Fords it was the 5.0 and then the 5.8. In short, f*** all of em. You have to experience what it not only "was" but what it "is" today. I read a line in an editorial decades ago. "Muscle cars are an oddity now, much like a tattoo discovered after a night of debauchery." Damn straight, and this grey ol bastid has no intentions of ever having that tattoo removed.

At the same time, I get it for all you magazine worshipers who must have what the books lead you to. There's a very real and strong business model attached to it and it's doing well. As a pro restoration/builder type, my response to a client that wants it done would be, "What color would you like that LS painted sir?"
 

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"...Not once did I feel the need to drop the flavor of the time modern engine between the fenders....
This is it, and stated brilliantly. Ever look at a Pro-stock style street car built in 1985 or so? No, they didn't age well. A lot of the 'flavor of the day' stuff doesn't hold up well over time. What holds up? Stock original and classy, tasteful customs. But "what's hip today might become passe". The original design of a true classic only gets better with age, like fine wine. Thanks 666bbbl....that's the heart of it, right there.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I think it can be seen that perhaps the LS swap versus original Pontiac is generational for the most part. Those of us who have had the pleasure, and now the memories, of participating in a time when these muscle cars were available to us to purchase, drive, or get a ride in, will be hard pressed to want anything else under the hood of a GTO other than a Pontiac engine. It was a time when car manufacturers were defined by both body style and engine. GM shared many parts from manufacturer to another. We see this even on this forum when we swap parts from one A-Body maker to another. The Muncie 4-speed was found in all GM cars that offered the 4-speed option. Rear-ends, B-O-P were essentially the same and you could install a Chevelle rear into a Pontiac because frames were similar. But what made Pontiac different from the "other" GM brands was the engine.:thumbsup:

We did not think of our Pontiacs, Buicks, Olds, Chevies, GMC's or Caddy's as a GM or corporate car. Pontiac was an independent company with its own engineers, its own designers, its own factories, its own marketers, and its own dealerships. Pontiac offered its own version of an engine and that was part of why you bought a Pontiac. Engine parts did not swap with a Buick, an Olds, a Chevy, or a Caddy. Pontiac engine parts only fit another Pontiac.

But we also stood behind our brand of manufacturer like one would support a sports team. We were Pontiac guys, Chevy Guys, Mopar guys, Ford guys, Olds guys, Buick guys, and American Motors guys. Each of the groups bragged on what brand of cars were the best or fastest. Challenges pitting one car against another was the end result as most of us had our "special place" where we would meet and street race to see who was indeed the fastest. It did not matter if your 1969 GTO had a later model engine, or your 1965 Chevelle had an LS6 454 in it. The engine was of the same manufacture as the car, and that combo represented that make, be it Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, or whatever else there was to race at the time to see who had the fastest car. We were running maker against maker. Sometimes Pontiac won, sometimes the Ford guys won, sometimes the Chevy guys won. Then another car would pop up and soon rumors were that they had the fastest car, and it would start all over again.

Back in the day, brands and manufacturers were defined and separate. Today, these lines are not so well defined as corporate cranks out the same engine/trans combo's into differently named brands which are ultimately the same cars with different clothing. The same engine in a late model Trans-Am is the same engine in a Z-28. You are simply choosing the outward appearance, and you can never really brag that your Pontiac beat a Chevy because both have Chevy (Corporate) engines. But there was a time when you could stomped a Chevy with your Pontiac and everyone knew that it was the Pontiac engine under your hood that stomped the Chevy engine under his hood.:smile2:
 

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"Quadrajets when set up correctly are as close to fuel injection reliability as you can get", nothing against carbs but no way- computer controlled EFI systems constantly monitor air/fuel mixture ratio and change accordingly-instantly. Tune your car for the beach then drive up into the mountains it will NOT run as good. how about when you start up and its freezing out or how about high humidity, or high temperature when air is less dense? EFI automatically adjusts, your carb does not. You can definitely tune your carb for an average of driving condition where you live and it will run great. But the science of the 2 systems is like comparing an 8 track to an ipod
 

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I think the key word was 'reliability', not drivability. Fuel injection, particularly port fuel injection with a dry manifold is superior to carburetion at pretty much every level. The main reason I take my '94 4Runner to the mountains instead of my '83 4x4 Toyota pickup is because of the fuel injection: the 'runner runs the same at sea level as it does at 10,000 feet. Not so the carbureted truck. That said, the reliability of a carburetor will surprise you young guys. I have been driving the original, born-with quadrajet on my '67 for 31 years now. And that's just me. The PO put 125k miles on it from '67 to '83. The same carb. The same distributor. 246,000 miles and counting. Started right up today when I went on errands, hadn't been started in two weeks. I actually thought about how well it runs because this same topic is now raging on the other forum in the 'fuel mileage' thread. Fuel injection IS better than carburetion, but in the musclecar world, you are not really giving up performance or reliability with a carb, driven normally. Crusty, your '65 is one of the nicest cars on this forum. I would be proud to own it and drive it. You did a hell of a job. That said, let's see if your still driving it 31 years from now on the same engine and induction system, with the same parts, as I have done. I wonder why younger people assume that this old school stuff isn't reliable? Lack of understanding on how it works? Lack of real world experience? I dunno. Hell, my 99 year old, bone stock Ford model T is reliable....and it's running it's original block and Holly G brass updraft carb.... Just have to drive it within its design limitations (SLOWLY!) ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
x2 with geeteeohguy. I think crustysack has a super '65 and no doubt much work and thought has gone into it to get it that way.

The tri-power, AFB, Q-jet, and any other form of carb does indeed have a window to which it best works in. You are also talking 389 and up cubes. But, you can indeed tailor a carb to your needs, and I never experienced any adverse problems when seasons changed or altitudes altered.

It is the cam that seemingly dictates the carb adjustments, and then the rear axle ratio has bearing on both the carb and chosen cam. A bigger cam needs and uses more fuel, so the carb needs to be adjusted richer (as would FI). A smaller cam needs less fuel and can be adjusted leaner (as would FI). The gear ratio at which you might want to cruise with determines the RPM range the engine will be spinning, which factors into carb performance and MPG's. FI will alter itself within a certain range as matched to your engine. But if you build your engine, you then have to make changes to your FI delivery system, computer module, and fuel system. So the FI also has a range it works within.

I can put a Q-jet on an inline Pontiac 6 or a purpose built drag race 455CI and only have to change jets, secondary hangers, and some minor tweaks. FI would require many more and expensive changes to have the diversity the Q-jet has.:yesnod:

I have had several Pontiacs, to include a 1967 GTO, that got into the 20 MPG range with highway gears doing steady highway driving. Around town, mileage was lost due to stop and go. Most will get 18 on the highway with a good tune-up and adjustment for such if you don't go crazy with a big cam or gearing. That's better than many of the bigger trucks and SUV's of today with fuel injection.

The thing about the Q-jet is the sound. You won't get this with a modern fuel injection unit.

That said, fuel injection or TBI is a great add-on to a Pontiac engine and part of a "resto-mod" theme. I would do this myself if it was not for the price of the system, computer controls, and modified fuel system. I can't justify the cost over a tried and true, and reliable, Q-jet, AFB, Holley or other carb. FI or TBI is a big step up in price that I don't feel is justified in making any appreciable difference.

The FI and TBI is also subject to its share of woes. It has a fuel filter, an electric fuel pump, injectors, assorted sensors, computer, wiring, etc. all of which can go bad at the worst time and require a technician or special diagnostic equipment to sort out the problem - I've owned a number of late model cars to make this statement. Seems every garage visit costs $250 and up nowadays. It will run you a minimum of $100 just for a diagnosis, then you have to do the repairs. One visit for a bad throttle position sensor, fuel injector, or electric fuel pump gone bad within the fuel tank, and I could have bought a new/restored carb. You don't want to ever buy a new computer. Ouch! A guy at work had something go on his Yukon fuel system - $600 repair. The FI or TBI may be seemingly more reliable UNTIL it isn't. Then when we match dollar for dollar in what it takes to get the FI or TBI system up and running versus that of a carb, the carb looks far more favorable -it is a simpler system that is far more easier to diagnose and/or repair or replace.:thumbsup:
 

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Well said, Jim, as usual. I've been working on all of this stuff almost as long as you have, and for a living. Bottom line over the long haul: the older, lower tech mechanical stuff (Carbs and ignition points distributors) are slightly higher maintenance, but are superior in reliability over the higher tech electronic stuff over time. I have seen MANY tow-in's related to bad ignition modules, PCM, in-tank fuel pump, pick up coils, you name it. These vehicles required expensive parts and expensive diagnosis, many times, with dedicated specialized electronic tools. The tow ins I have seen with the older low tech cars could be diagnosed and repaired in short order with a test light and a screwdriver. Again, we will see how many 2014 Camaros will be on the road in 50 years......I'm betting not too many. Electronics degrade over time and use, rendering modern cars nothing more than expensive appliances: use them up and throw them away.
 

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I have owned and driven many carb'd I have nothing against the simplicity of the system and most people who have spent time under the hood understand how they work. The fine art of tuning a carburetor to its peak performance is a skill perfected by few. A tri-power set up is one of the sexiest things ever to sit on top of a motor- rest assured that if I had that to start with I would have dove in balls deep to get it restored and running proper. But as some of you know I inherited this project from my brother whos intention was the LS + 6 speed into the car. He started it in 05 before there were any motor mount kits for this swap( fabbed his own) and I just ran with it.
I have had much excitement with carbs, my first car I purchased with my own $$ was a 1970 Charger and the first thing I did was buy a bigger Holley carb my inexperience with tuning it almost burnt the whole car and garage down, I mean it LOOKED cool with the flames shooting straight up out of the carb.
I drove my moms 56 Austin from the shop, carb over haul included half way home I'm smelling fuel, pull over and see that the carb has loosened off of the intake and fuel pissing all over the motor, very lucky not to have gone up in a puff there.
There are a lot of bad ass cars on this forum, and a lot of people whom are way more skilled than me when it comes to engine tear down and assembly, and I respect the skills.The two fastest car I ever rode in were normally aspirated a 70 454 Chevelle which was very fast and my buddies 1968 Chevelle with a 604 cubic inch crate motor putting out about 850 hp, which was RETARDED- that car would pin you to the seat at any speed when he hit the gas.
I like the technology that is being offered today, with a hand held tuner you can read EXACTLY how your motor is running- not giving the air mixture screw a 1/4 turn and saying "that sounds better". You can change the shift point in an automatic with a computer. Try doing that on a 68 automatic. You can detune the car to pass emissions than bump it right back up the same day. My point is you can build an LSx motor however you want enter all the parameter and the car will be tuned. These are just tools to help the builder out.
I no longer use a plumb bob when building boats I use a laser. I embrace the new tech, and everyone is entitled to their opinion which makes this forum interesting.
On the flip side of repair cost if you bring in a non obdII port car you are still paying 85-110 per hour for someone to manually diagnose the problem and simple stuff car become expensive due to the lack of good ol fashioned mechanical know how
 
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