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Discussion Starter #1
For the past few years, California gas prices have always been .40 a gallon higher than everywhere else -- for no good reason. Now, those prices have spread nationwide.

However, the price of diesel out there has gone absolutely nuts. $3.39 a gallon -- again, for no good reason. Can't be justified by a lack of refining capacity. Can't be justified by a lack of crude -- as there is currently a glut of the stuff on the market.

Being ever cynical of the oil companies -- and Redneck One -- this smells like an elasticity test which could spread to gasoline prices out here -- then nationwide.
 

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Ahh the oil companies testing the limits of oil elasticity. The only problem i find with this is that te consumer has in his mind that this is all short term, so the consumer might make it seem like the price is overly elastic(sic, I know it is not used exactly correctly), when in reality, that is not the case for the long run.
 

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My guess is if the price of fuel stays as high as it is for much longer, we are going to be talking about a recession. I think the price of fuel will spill over into inflation of the price of everything transported by truck. Plus anything that has plastic, asphalt or any other petrochem byproduct. This bursts the housing bubble, people can't afford to pay more for a house than they are now. That starts a downward spiral of the economy. We then use less oil and the price falls.A US recession destroys the world economy too. This is what has the Arabs (OPEC) so concerned. It hit them in the late 70's and early 80's and it took them till 2000 2001 to get the price of oil back where they had control of it.
 

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Absolutely. When interest rates go up -- not only are people going to stop buying houses -- you're going to see folks who did insane stuff like zero down ARMs and negative amortization loans bail out when they can't make the payments. The whole country's going to look like Dallas and Colorado in the 80's -- entire streets of houses, most empty, with for sale signs in front of them.
 

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b_a_betterperson said:
Absolutely. When interest rates go up -- not only are people going to stop buying houses -- you're going to see folks who did insane stuff like zero down ARMs and negative amortization loans bail out when they can't make the payments. The whole country's going to look like Dallas and Colorado in the 80's -- entire streets of houses, most empty, with for sale signs in front of them.
......And thanks to Mr. Greenspan the interest rates are on their way up right now. Hang on folks the storm that's a brewing is going to make Katrina and Rita look mild.
 

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I wouldn't be surprised it the high price of gasoline in Cali includes lots of taxes. Before you blame the big bad oil companies, at least cover your bases and make sure that blame isn't misplaced.
 

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b_a_betterperson said:
:agree But I think there is a lot of unseen taxs not even listed on this chart. And I only say this because I was a service station owner in the early 1980's and the tax's were double the tank wagon price at that time! :confused
However I also know the dealer profit was 1-3 cents on a gallon vs 20-30 cents today and the spread between regular and preminum was 5 cents vs 20-30 cents today.
We are not only getting shafted by the oil companys but also the dealers and the goverment too! :mad:
 

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Well, CA is third highest in the nation - $0.08/gallon more than the national average and $0.10 more than my state. That explains at least some of it.

But, the real reason it's that price is because that's the market clearing price right now in CA. If demand does not sufficiently fall to motivate a decrease in price, then why should we be surprised that (insert entity here) charges what they charge for Gasonline - even if it seems too high. Assuming they (the oil companies or whatever) are motivated by profit, why would they lower price when demand remains high at the current price?

Personally, I'm kind of happy that the cost of gasoline is this high. The reason is that this is the only mechanism by which real change can come via more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicles. I trust the market to mandate hydrogen cars (or whatever perceived fossil fuel replacement panacea) more than I do legislation.

The price of gasoline, to me, is like so many other things in life. It sucks - I have to deal with it - and if I dwell on it, I'll just get angry. So, I just accept that it's reality and go on with my life.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
SJAndrew said:
Personally, I'm kind of happy that the cost of gasoline is this high.
You've just made a bunch of friends on this board with that statement.

SJAndrew said:
But, the real reason it's that price is because that's the market clearing price right now in CA. If demand does not sufficiently fall to motivate a decrease in price, then why should we be surprised that (insert entity here) charges what they charge for Gasonline - even if it seems too high.
My ass. The price is being dictated to us through constricted supply and manipulation of the crude and retail petroleum markets. Just like our power rates were manipulated a few years ago. The spot market for electricity went up 10,000% -- costing consumers billions. And only after everybody got screwed, and FERC said everything was OK and that there wasn't anything worth investigating, did all the evidence that Enron was shutting power lines down and Mirant was closing plants for "maintenance" come to the surface.

Go ahead. Live your life. As a sheep.
 

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my opinion. the bottom line is this:

I've been tellin people for months we are headed for a recession. And many DO NOT want to hear this, but I am tellin ya, Gas will be up until we clear out of Iraq.

The U.S. is hated by the rag head world, and they are squeezing our economy. In essence, we are being financially terrorized by OPEC. OPEC dictates how much oil will be produced. They control the barrel output. Our markets respond to the decisions they make. Prices escalate as a result of it.

Our financial strength begins with crude and they are controlling our economy by doing this. The hell with bombing more sky scrapers they have a strangle hold on our economy by reducing output. We are at the mercy of terrorists. Bush keeps saying we are not leaving Iraq, and OPEC reduces output and claim other reasons for it. BULL FUC**SH*T. They want us out of their region and until we are gone this game they are playing will continue. Those sand fleas over there have been blowing up each other for centuries, and it will continue long after Bush's 8 yrs in office is over. He will never stop it. If anyone thinks he's going to stop centuries of hatred killings in 8 yrs your dreaming.

All the while our mid east friends smile at our administration and thumb their noses at us at the same time. Look at the pictures in the news. Our ali Saudi Arabia is not as strong an ali as they appear to be. Look at all the sh*t that goes on over there.

I am not going to debate anyone on who, what, where, when, and why. Everyone has their own opinions. My opinions are based on the strong arm tactics of our Sand Flea buddies.

To coin a phrase by Barry Mcguire....... "take a look around ya boy, ya don't believe we're on the eve of destruction."
 

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Oil companies cannot dictate price.

If this overstatement were true, then why not charge $100.00 a gallon? How about $1,000.00 a gallon? If they have the power, completely independent of the market, to dictate price, then they're either idiots for not charging thousands per gallon or they're extremely charitable. I accept neither explanation.

They're free to charge as much as they want as we're free to not purchase their product. The interaction of these forces is what dictates the price - not the oil companies (independently).

The answer to why gasonline costs upwards of $3.00 per gallon is because the market is willing to pay this price. This willingness to pay is not infinite which is why the oil companies cannot dictate the price.

I'm not saying the oil companies are not extremely powerful - both financially and politically. I also think they (the oil companies) spend lots of resources to manipulate markets and supply chain(s) to their benefit. But, to assert they dictate prices I think is an overstatement.
 

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SJAndrew said:
Oil companies cannot dictate price.

If this overstatement were true, then why not charge $100.00 a gallon? How about $1,000.00 a gallon? If they have the power, completely independent of the market, to dictate price, then they're either idiots for not charging thousands per gallon or they're extremely charitable. I accept neither explanation.

They're free to charge as much as they want as we're free to not purchase their product. The interaction of these forces is what dictates the price - not the oil companies (independently).

The answer to why gasonline costs upwards of $3.00 per gallon is because the market is willing to pay this price. This willingness to pay is not infinite which is why the oil companies cannot dictate the price.

I'm not saying the oil companies are not extremely powerful - both financially and politically. I also think they (the oil companies) spend lots of resources to manipulate markets and supply chain(s) to their benefit. But, to assert they dictate prices I think is an overstatement.
I am not saying the oil companies are dictating prices. I am saying >>>> OPEC DICTATES OUTPUT. Oil companies react off of this, as does wall street. IT IS OPEC THAT IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INCREASES IN PRICES.

It all starts with output. If the output is suddenly decreased, supply and demand go up. Hence higher prices. If OPEC decided to increase oil production to pre Iraq rates then prices per barrel would decline. Plentiful oil supplies would drive down oil costs. True the gluttony of oil companies is always there, but in the overall realm of why is oil so high. IT ALL STARTS WITH OPEC.

OPEC decided to decrease output, the price per barrel went up. This issue can be beat around until the cows come home. Look at the mid east, there is where the problem begins.
 

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SJAndrew said:
I wasn't replying to you Judge - sorry for the confusion.
ok no problem :lol: :cheers

I get a little ryled when I turn on the news and see our kids being killed over there, and then drive down the road and I see gas prices going caddywhampus, then pick up a news paper and read Exxon reports 46 billion in profits in the last quarter.... I think I'll kick the dog :eek:
 

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GTO judge said:
I am not saying the oil companies are dictating prices. I am saying >>>> OPEC DICTATES OUTPUT. Oil companies react off of this, as does wall street. IT IS OPEC THAT IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INCREASES IN PRICES.

It all starts with output. If the output is suddenly decreased, supply and demand go up. Hence higher prices. If OPEC decided to increase oil production to pre Iraq rates then prices per barrel would decline. Plentiful oil supplies would drive down oil costs. True the gluttony of oil companies is always there, but in the overall realm of why is oil so high. IT ALL STARTS WITH OPEC.

OPEC decided to decrease output, the price per barrel went up. This issue can be beat around until the cows come home. Look at the mid east, there is where the problem begins.
All righty you gearheads / socioeconomic visionaries...can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

So, it's all the ragheads fault eh? If the Ayatollah would pump the hollah.....

Well the flip side of supply is demand. We consume 30% of the world's fossil fuels.

If we ........
:eek: Mandate geothermal heat pumps in all our new construction
:eek: Outlaw homes with more than 500 sq feet per family member
:eek: Ban anything other than hybrid vehicles under 3,000 lbs
:eek: Go to bed at 8PM
:eek: Bathe twice a week (that's a 100% increase for some of you)
:eek: Live within 3 miles of our workplace like the Euro trash
:eek: Implement world class public transportation in our cities like the Japs
:eek: Eliminate night games in all pro sports

Then them damn bedsheet boys could jes keep all they danged oil for camel colonics.

Of course we could just shut up and drive our gas guzzling SUV's and V8 sports cars 2 hours to work and back home to our 4,000 sq ft McMansions instead of whining like sissy boys.

Nah, it's the stinkin ragheads, I'm sure of it.

Now crank on that pump Mustaffah or we'll invade yer ass. We got one more Bush hidin in the bushes.
 

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GTO judge said:
I've been tellin people for months we are headed for a recession. And many DO NOT want to hear this, but I am tellin ya, Gas will be up until we clear out of Iraq.

The U.S. is hated by the rag head world, and they are squeezing our economy. In essence, we are being financially terrorized by OPEC. OPEC dictates how much oil will be produced. They control the barrel output. Our markets respond to the decisions they make. Prices escalate as a result of it.

Our financial strength begins with crude and they are controlling our economy by doing this. The hell with bombing more sky scrapers they have a strangle hold on our economy by reducing output. We are at the mercy of terrorists. Bush keeps saying we are not leaving Iraq, and OPEC reduces output and claim other reasons for it. BULL FUC**SH*T. They want us out of their region and until we are gone this game they are playing will continue. Those sand fleas over there have been blowing up each other for centuries, and it will continue long after Bush's 8 yrs in office is over. He will never stop it. If anyone thinks he's going to stop centuries of hatred killings in 8 yrs your dreaming.

All the while our mid east friends smile at our administration and thumb their noses at us at the same time. Look at the pictures in the news. Our ali Saudi Arabia is not as strong an ali as they appear to be. Look at all the sh*t that goes on over there.

I am not going to debate anyone on who, what, where, when, and why. Everyone has their own opinions. My opinions are based on the strong arm tactics of our Sand Flea buddies.

To coin a phrase by Barry Mcguire....... "take a look around ya boy, ya don't believe we're on the eve of destruction."
OPEC is very concerned about the price of crude. It is too high and will cause a recession which will hurt them long term. Also people are finding ways to be more efficient which really hurts them. They are doing everything they can to lower the price. There is a severe lack of refineries due to enviromentalists. Every time someone tries to build a refinery the enviromental wackos go nuts.They say we need to give up our amenities. In all honesty though, Saddam was hated and feared by all of his neighbors. They are glad he is gone, so Iraq has nothing to do with this.
Second issue, the news media never shows that there are more schools for children and more children attending schools. They don't tell you that the standard of living for most Iraqi's has risen. More than 50% of the Iraqi citizens approve of the US invasion and welcome us. We now have a free democratic country where there was none. There are no more terror killings by Saddam's thugs. No more jailings for political terror. We did a good thing for the world.
Get off the Bush bashing and do something productive.
 

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Wing_Nut said:
All righty you gearheads / socioeconomic visionaries...can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

So, it's all the ragheads fault eh? If the Ayatollah would pump the hollah.....

Well the flip side of supply is demand. We consume 30% of the world's fossil fuels.

If we ........
:eek: Mandate geothermal heat pumps in all our new construction
:eek: Outlaw homes with more than 500 sq feet per family member
:eek: Ban anything other than hybrid vehicles under 3,000 lbs
:eek: Go to bed at 8PM
:eek: Bathe twice a week (that's a 100% increase for some of you)
:eek: Live within 3 miles of our workplace like the Euro trash
:eek: Implement world class public transportation in our cities like the Japs
:eek: Eliminate night games in all pro sports

Then them damn bedsheet boys could jes keep all they danged oil for camel colonics.

Of course we could just shut up and drive our gas guzzling SUV's and V8 sports cars 2 hours to work and back home to our 4,000 sq ft McMansions instead of whining like sissy boys.

Nah, it's the stinkin ragheads, I'm sure of it.

Now crank on that pump Mustaffah or we'll invade yer ass. We got one more Bush hidin in the bushes.
Lets take a look at real life here. The US actually consumes just over 26% of the worlds fossil fuels and produces just under a 1/3 of the worlds GDP. I'd say the Socialists in Europe need to figure out how to be more efficient. A good place to start would be to try more capitalism. China is doing just that and their economy is exploding. Socialism (liberalism) always produces the exact oppisite of it's intended outcome.
 

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fergyflyer said:
Lets take a look at real life here. The US actually consumes just over 26% of the worlds fossil fuels and produces just under a 1/3 of the worlds GDP. I'd say the Socialists in Europe need to figure out how to be more efficient. A good place to start would be to try more capitalism. China is doing just that and their economy is exploding. Socialism (liberalism) always produces the exact oppisite of it's intended outcome.
No no no no no no no!

Forget real life. Let's blame third world countries for not handing over their natural resources to us. It's much easier and we have all the weapons.

The Arabs ain't a bunch of dumb nomads anymore. They understand capitalism completely. They don't want to be taken to the cleaners or dictated to by outside interests but they are smart enough to realize what a global recession would mean for them.

Let's see, the last time oil markets collapsed it took about twenty years to stabilize prices again. I don't see OPEC trying to screw us because they have skin in this game. Ultimately they would screw themselves.

Nope, I think we have to admit that we are energy hogs. It's the first step to recovery.

As for me, I'm not gonna whine about it. And I'm gonna drive my GTO until I don't wanna drive it no more.

Does that sound like a contradiction? Well I'm complex! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

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I think WingNut hits on an important point. As much as most of the people and their governments in the middle east may hate us, they're not stupid enough to forsake our ability and willingness to buy their oil.
 
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