Len is located in Barstow Oklahoma.- Len Williams
Opinions sought on estimate for full rebuild of 67, 400cc Pontiac Engine
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yes, 1 year parts and lobor
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Yes. 1 year parts and labor
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Numbers matching engine with n block or head issues so rebuild the only option.
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Correct, numbers matching engine, which is already out. The big question is 50 hours labor for a stock rebuild (tear down, rebuild, reassemble and dyno) reasonable? They bill out at $150 per hour which although high, is not out of the range here in coastal New England.
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The shop up here (local to where live) in coastal NH) was recommended by several GTO guys in the area and has a very good reputation earned over 30 years in business. I'm not a car guy in terms of having the knowledge or ability to work on them so no choice but to have all the work done by a 3rd party. My guess is that the New Haven shop after shipping charges would be similarly priced or higher given the coast of living down there which is even higher than here. Having said that I'll give them a call.
as I said, Im not seeing that as reasonable
Well, this thread made 3 pages in less than 24 hours. To me, it sounds like you're answering your own question.
All of us agreed that between economics and parts variations, your pricing was potentially spot-on.
Businesses do charge extra for reputation, and so you should expect to pay more, just because they're reputable... The peace of mind is typically worth it.
Yes, we all thought your estimate had some oddities, but as I just said, when you're the best, you get to call all the shots.
Any thought to replacing the crank and rods? Hate to see that go south when spending that kind of cash.
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Yes look at his web site. 400 and 455 versions. Len Williams Auto Machine
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Crank should be the least of your worries if ground right. Good crank thread going on right now over on the PY forum.
Factory cast crank experiences - PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together
Factory cast crank experiences Pontiac - Race
forums.maxperformanceinc.com
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The crank shaft can break. I had one grenade on me and I seem to remember @Old Man Taylor running into the same thing. Keep in mind, these parts are old with thousands of heating and cooling cycles.
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Got it. Any chance you can deliver it to whatever shop you use? Does the labor hours include them installing it in your car? If so, price may not be too bad. If it's just the machine work, the build, and the dyno (I assume this is just to break in the engine) the number of hours may be high. I removed my old engine from the car, and tore down to to the bare block on a Saturday and was done by lunch time. This was my first engine removal and I am not a mechanic by trade. I started with a short block, but the top end assembly took me maybe 10 hours total and I was really taking my time with it.
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Here could be another option I might consider.
The Len Williams 400CI long block is $6,095.00 and of course shipping on top of that.
You might consider have a Len Williams short block done MINUS your heads. Set your original '67 short block off to the side unless you are going concours judging at car shows. The short block won't matter if it is a '67 or other. You will use your '67 timing cover, water pump, balancer, pulleys, etc. so it'll all be 1967 and look as original.
Then have your 670 original heads rebuilt locally. Install your intake, carb, distrib,, valley pan, exhaust, etc..
My guess is that it may be under 8K to go this route and you won't have to worry about breaking the original short block if you want to exercise the engine a little. I am sure Len Williams can supply/install any needed parts like the cam to your stock specs if you put together a build with him and lt him know your goal.
Otherwise, if money is not an issue, go with the local guy. 50 hours is probably not unreasonable due to all the time to set-up the equipment, mike parts, verify, reassemble, etc.. There is a lot of labor hours.......plus paying for his lunch hour.
But, what can happen is that just because you have a 11K engine does not mean the car's value just jumped up 11K. Some can have 80K in a restoration on a car that is only worth 55K and think it is worth 90K. Does not always work that way. If you got the car in great condition for a song, then the 11K build would then yield a good profit.
My next car build is going to have a very cheapo Chevy old school small block that I can build for about 3K on a good day.
The Len Williams 400CI long block is $6,095.00 and of course shipping on top of that.
You might consider have a Len Williams short block done MINUS your heads. Set your original '67 short block off to the side unless you are going concours judging at car shows. The short block won't matter if it is a '67 or other. You will use your '67 timing cover, water pump, balancer, pulleys, etc. so it'll all be 1967 and look as original.
Then have your 670 original heads rebuilt locally. Install your intake, carb, distrib,, valley pan, exhaust, etc..
My guess is that it may be under 8K to go this route and you won't have to worry about breaking the original short block if you want to exercise the engine a little. I am sure Len Williams can supply/install any needed parts like the cam to your stock specs if you put together a build with him and lt him know your goal.
Otherwise, if money is not an issue, go with the local guy. 50 hours is probably not unreasonable due to all the time to set-up the equipment, mike parts, verify, reassemble, etc.. There is a lot of labor hours.......plus paying for his lunch hour.
But, what can happen is that just because you have a 11K engine does not mean the car's value just jumped up 11K. Some can have 80K in a restoration on a car that is only worth 55K and think it is worth 90K. Does not always work that way. If you got the car in great condition for a song, then the 11K build would then yield a good profit.
My next car build is going to have a very cheapo Chevy old school small block that I can build for about 3K on a good day.
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My concern is what others have voiced that he's not a Pontiac engine builder so things could go wrong if he's treating it like a Chevy build. I know mine was built in 2014 when the world was flat and things were much cheaper I get it, BUT my build sheet total was 11,466.00. This was for a Butler ( off the bat you have probably the best Pontiac shop in the country) 461, arguably some of the best parts used, ( Eagle crank, forged rods and pistons, on and on) ported heads, gasket matched intake, Flowcooler pump, MSD dizzy w/wires and plugs, Cliff Ruggles Q jet, 110gph fuel pump, braided line and fittings to carb, surfaced flywheel, chrome valve covers, blue printed, broken in and oil, dynode, and frickn shipped to FL. Maybe this motor would be 20k now idk but I agree the OP should get a second and third opinion.
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Good stuff as usual Jim!...My next car build is going to have a very cheapo Chevy old school small block that I can build for about 3K on a good day.
@russmatt99 ...welcome to the world of Pontiac! There's no other world quite like it.
A few things. I could put 50 hours into a poor-man's engine build. Of course, I don't have the fancy tools or do my own machine work, but the block will be very detailed by removing the extra flashing, all ports poor-man port matched and blended (free power). I'll take twice as long checking all the dimensions I know to check due to lesser measuring tools, and likely to do some things twice from lack of experience or faith in my mesurements.
Too bad our Pontiacs are not more like Chebys when it comes to cost. I just rebuilt most of the drivetrain in my 85 Cheby K20 truck which included a 350 (machine shop massaged & assembled block and rotating assembly - 200 HP, maybe), heads reworked, had a salvage yard 700R4 transmission rebuilt (because I broke the original case dropping it out - literally) along with the transfer case rebuilt...all for about $6000. I hope to be good for another 75,000 miles. I'll have that and more in parts for the Pontiac long block build that's not too far around the corner for me.
Do some research, learn some buzz words, get a novice understanding of the buzz words, and compare a few shops quotes against what you have learned. It's not the easiest thing to do, especially if patience is short and money is not so tight. It's part of our hobby and you have this forum to make things easier...even if it seems confusing to begin with.
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Does not include install (another $1,500 or so). Waiting on some numbers from another local shop without a dyno (it does run the engine of a stand before payment) that would use the same parts, Shop has been around for 30 years and also gets high marks from local enthusiasts.....would save 30% to 40% with them all on labor costs (they charge half of the other place) They're also cheaper because they don't dyno, it's a two person shop and they don't have a written warrantee. Given that this is a stock rebuild I'm leaning toward the cheaper option.
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