Pontiac GTO Forum banner
41 - 60 of 87 Posts

Registered
Joined
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #45 ·
I have no experience with these fellas, but have read several positive experiences on this forum and others. They've been around for several years now and have perfect feedback on ebay (which is hard to achieve these days with all the d-bags buying stuff there now like its Amazon):


May be better to preserve your current engine as a backup and buy a complete long block from them? They look to have several 400 options under $10k, with a warranty and free shipping. may be worth reaching out to them with your desires...

$11K for a stock-ish rebuild sounds very high to me, but I'm no expert...just cheap!
Numbers matching engine with n block or head issues so rebuild the only option.
 

Registered
Joined
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Price seems really high to me. From what I gather, you're looking at having the original numbers matching engine rebuilt? If so. Len Williams would be a great choice but he's not local to you. His shop is in Oklahoma. Are you pulling the engine yourself and delivering to the shop? If so, reach out to Darrin at Nitemare. His shop is in southern CT and he only works on Pontiac. His website only shows crazy performance builds, but I know for a fact that he does stock rebuilds. There was a stock built numbers matching 455 that was going back in it's bone stock 72 SD Firebird, in his shop when I picked up my heads from him last year.

Side note, I built my engine last year using a Len Williams short block and all the performance goodies and the cost was somewhere close to $12K. That was with having to buy the short block (assembled and ready to go with all new internals), and the heads (ported and rebuilt by Nitemare as well) with both components being supplied by the builders. Mine is far from stock sitting somewhere around 500hp, so yah, your price sounds high to me.
Correct, numbers matching engine, which is already out. The big question is 50 hours labor for a stock rebuild (tear down, rebuild, reassemble and dyno) reasonable? They bill out at $150 per hour which although high, is not out of the range here in coastal New England.
 

Registered
Joined
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Did they provide some vaseline with that estimate?

Instead of going north, why not go south? Contact Darrin Magro, the owner/builder at Nitemare Performance in New Haven, CT. All he does is Pontiac engines and has built them for several magazine cars and has also built them for charity give-aways.

I feel a whole lot better handing a shop that specializes in Pontiac engine 11K over a non-Pontiac shop. Not saying you won't get top notch work, and my guess is he builds a lot of drag engines, so his prices reflect that.


Click on a few of these magazines you can PDF download:


Hmmmm, complete rebuild? Now here's a complete rebuild:

Engine Specifics:

Nitemare Performance:

- blueprinted 2-bolt main, 400 block

- Nitemare ported, polished &
flowbench-tested 6X Pontiac heads

  • Pro cam plate
  • Pro oil driveshaft
  • Pro oil pump plate
  • Pro cam washer/eccentric delete
  • timing cover and pump plate
  • cam and crank keys
-internal dipstick tube
  • copper oil pump gasket
  • external dipstick tube
  • water neck
  • water pump

  • complete blueprinted assembly process
  • full paint job
  • pre-running the engine for complete ring sealing and
cam/lifter break in will be performed at Nitemare Performance

Scat Crankshafts:
Forged, balanced rotating assembly, including:
  • Forged steel crankshaft
  • Forged steel connecting rods
  • Forged aluminum Keith Black pistons
  • Performance piston rings
  • Performance main & rod bearings

BHJ Dynamics:
-Pontiac-specific harmonic damper

Cometic Gaskets:
  • Complete high-performance gasket kit, including:
  • Multi-Layer Steel (MLS) head gaskets
  • Intake manifold gaskets
  • Valve cover gaskets
  • Timing cover & water pump gaskets
  • Oil pan gaskets
  • Carb gasket

B&B Performance:
  • Accessory drive belts
  • Oil filters
  • Brass freeze plug kit
  • Cam bearings
  • Numerous fittings

Driven Racing Oil:
  • 15w-50 "BR" Break-In Oil
  • Hot Rod Oil
  • Defender & Booster Fuel Additive

Pertronix Performance Products:
  • Plug-n-Play Billet Distributor
  • Flame-Thrower High-Output Ignition Coil
  • Flame-Thrower 8mm Spark Plug Wires

BOP Engineering:
  • One-piece oil pan gasket
  • One-piece Viton rear main seal

National Parts Warehouse:
- ARP Engine Bolt Kit

Comp Cams:
  • Custom-ground camshaft
  • Lifters
  • Pushrods
  • Pushrod guide plates
  • Roller-tip rocker arms
  • Rocker studs
  • Valve Springs
  • Valve seals
  • Valve locks

Holley Performance:
- Quick Fuel Street Q 850 cfm Carburetor
The shop up here (local to where live) in coastal NH) was recommended by several GTO guys in the area and has a very good reputation earned over 30 years in business. I'm not a car guy in terms of having the knowledge or ability to work on them so no choice but to have all the work done by a 3rd party. My guess is that the New Haven shop after shipping charges would be similarly priced or higher given the coast of living down there which is even higher than here. Having said that I'll give them a call.
 

Premium Member
Cameo Ivory 1967
Joined
5,241 Posts
The shop up here (local to where live) in coastal NH) was recommended by several GTO guys in the area and has a very good reputation earned over 30 years in business
Well, this thread made 3 pages in less than 24 hours. To me, it sounds like you're answering your own question.

All of us agreed that between economics and parts variations, your pricing was potentially spot-on.

Businesses do charge extra for reputation, and so you should expect to pay more, just because they're reputable... The peace of mind is typically worth it.

Yes, we all thought your estimate had some oddities, but as I just said, when you're the best, you get to call all the shots.
 

Premium Member
Joined
2,957 Posts

Registered
Joined
1,490 Posts
Correct, numbers matching engine, which is already out. The big question is 50 hours labor for a stock rebuild (tear down, rebuild, reassemble and dyno) reasonable? They bill out at $150 per hour which although high, is not out of the range here in coastal New England.
Got it. Any chance you can deliver it to whatever shop you use? Does the labor hours include them installing it in your car? If so, price may not be too bad. If it's just the machine work, the build, and the dyno (I assume this is just to break in the engine) the number of hours may be high. I removed my old engine from the car, and tore down to to the bare block on a Saturday and was done by lunch time. This was my first engine removal and I am not a mechanic by trade. I started with a short block, but the top end assembly took me maybe 10 hours total and I was really taking my time with it.
 

Registered
Joined
7,355 Posts
Here could be another option I might consider.

The Len Williams 400CI long block is $6,095.00 and of course shipping on top of that.


You might consider have a Len Williams short block done MINUS your heads. Set your original '67 short block off to the side unless you are going concours judging at car shows. The short block won't matter if it is a '67 or other. You will use your '67 timing cover, water pump, balancer, pulleys, etc. so it'll all be 1967 and look as original.

Then have your 670 original heads rebuilt locally. Install your intake, carb, distrib,, valley pan, exhaust, etc..

My guess is that it may be under 8K to go this route and you won't have to worry about breaking the original short block if you want to exercise the engine a little. I am sure Len Williams can supply/install any needed parts like the cam to your stock specs if you put together a build with him and lt him know your goal.

Otherwise, if money is not an issue, go with the local guy. 50 hours is probably not unreasonable due to all the time to set-up the equipment, mike parts, verify, reassemble, etc.. There is a lot of labor hours.......plus paying for his lunch hour.

But, what can happen is that just because you have a 11K engine does not mean the car's value just jumped up 11K. Some can have 80K in a restoration on a car that is only worth 55K and think it is worth 90K. Does not always work that way. If you got the car in great condition for a song, then the 11K build would then yield a good profit.

My next car build is going to have a very cheapo Chevy old school small block that I can build for about 3K on a good day.

(y)
 

Premium Member
Joined
3,175 Posts
My concern is what others have voiced that he's not a Pontiac engine builder so things could go wrong if he's treating it like a Chevy build. I know mine was built in 2014 when the world was flat and things were much cheaper I get it, BUT my build sheet total was 11,466.00. This was for a Butler ( off the bat you have probably the best Pontiac shop in the country) 461, arguably some of the best parts used, ( Eagle crank, forged rods and pistons, on and on) ported heads, gasket matched intake, Flowcooler pump, MSD dizzy w/wires and plugs, Cliff Ruggles Q jet, 110gph fuel pump, braided line and fittings to carb, surfaced flywheel, chrome valve covers, blue printed, broken in and oil, dynode, and frickn shipped to FL. Maybe this motor would be 20k now idk but I agree the OP should get a second and third opinion.
 

Registered
Joined
1,149 Posts
...My next car build is going to have a very cheapo Chevy old school small block that I can build for about 3K on a good day.

(y)
Good stuff as usual Jim!

@russmatt99 ...welcome to the world of Pontiac! There's no other world quite like it.

A few things. I could put 50 hours into a poor-man's engine build. Of course, I don't have the fancy tools or do my own machine work, but the block will be very detailed by removing the extra flashing, all ports poor-man port matched and blended (free power). I'll take twice as long checking all the dimensions I know to check due to lesser measuring tools, and likely to do some things twice from lack of experience or faith in my mesurements.

Too bad our Pontiacs are not more like Chebys when it comes to cost. I just rebuilt most of the drivetrain in my 85 Cheby K20 truck which included a 350 (machine shop massaged & assembled block and rotating assembly - 200 HP, maybe), heads reworked, had a salvage yard 700R4 transmission rebuilt (because I broke the original case dropping it out - literally) along with the transfer case rebuilt...all for about $6000. I hope to be good for another 75,000 miles. I'll have that and more in parts for the Pontiac long block build that's not too far around the corner for me.

Do some research, learn some buzz words, get a novice understanding of the buzz words, and compare a few shops quotes against what you have learned. It's not the easiest thing to do, especially if patience is short and money is not so tight. It's part of our hobby and you have this forum to make things easier...even if it seems confusing to begin with.
 

Registered
Joined
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Got it. Any chance you can deliver it to whatever shop you use? Does the labor hours include them installing it in your car? If so, price may not be too bad. If it's just the machine work, the build, and the dyno (I assume this is just to break in the engine) the number of hours may be high. I removed my old engine from the car, and tore down to to the bare block on a Saturday and was done by lunch time. This was my first engine removal and I am not a mechanic by trade. I started with a short block, but the top end assembly took me maybe 10 hours total and I was really taking my time with it.
Does not include install (another $1,500 or so). Waiting on some numbers from another local shop without a dyno (it does run the engine of a stand before payment) that would use the same parts, Shop has been around for 30 years and also gets high marks from local enthusiasts.....would save 30% to 40% with them all on labor costs (they charge half of the other place) They're also cheaper because they don't dyno, it's a two person shop and they don't have a written warrantee. Given that this is a stock rebuild I'm leaning toward the cheaper option.
 
41 - 60 of 87 Posts
Top