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Cameo Ivory 1967
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Not a whole heck of a lot of reason to dyno... aside from bragging rights.

Especially if you're going to build a 400 for a Pontiac GTO. It's basically a 60 year old recipe, which will always yeild the same basic results. If you do a stock rebuild with a ram air cam and 670 heads, you're going to be right around 375 Hp.

Some basic port work and a timing curve will push it a good 15-20 higher.

You dont need a dyno to tell you any of this, unless a builder is charging you for high dollar HP, and you need to see proof.
 

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Not a whole heck of a lot of reason to dyno... aside from bragging rights.

Especially if you're going to build a 400 for a Pontiac GTO. It's basically a 60 year old recipe, which will always yeild the same basic results. If you do a stock rebuild with a ram air cam and 670 heads, you're going to be right around 375 Hp.

Some basic port work and a timing curve will push it a good 15-20 higher.

You dont need a dyno to tell you any of this, unless a builder is charging you for high dollar HP, and you need to see proof.
The dyno work is not about HP numbers. Many shops do this to break/dial in the engine for you so it is done correctly. One reason why they probably give a warranty. If they know it was broken in properly and they had no issues, then it is harder to say they did anything wrong and then if they have to tear down the engine to look for damages, it'll be easier to bite the bullet if need be because they messed up.
 

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Does not include install (another $1,500 or so). Waiting on some numbers from another local shop without a dyno (it does run the engine of a stand before payment) that would use the same parts, Shop has been around for 30 years and also gets high marks from local enthusiasts.....would save 30% to 40% with them all on labor costs (they charge half of the other place) They're also cheaper because they don't dyno, it's a two person shop and they don't have a written warrantee. Given that this is a stock rebuild I'm leaning toward the cheaper option.
Did you say no warranty? :oops:
 

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Cameo Ivory 1967
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The dyno work is not about HP numbers. Many shops do this to break/dial in the engine for you so it is done correctly. One reason why they probably give a warranty. If they know it was broken in properly and they had no issues, then it is harder to say they did anything wrong and then if they have to tear down the engine to look for damages, it'll be easier to bite the bullet if need be because they messed up.
The shop I use breaks them in, either way, but I can see why someone would do that.
 

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Cameo Ivory 1967
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Give to us, we will either break it in or break it up. ;)
Speaking of!!! An uncle o mine promised me a 327, many years ago. He died three years back, but it finally made it to me. It's a 65, 350hp unit... but it's missing a main cap! They may or may not have it... so, I intended to rebuild it, but is it worth it if I need to buy new caps and have it align honed?
 

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Located an hour north of Boston in coastal NH.
hey bud, I live in NH as well and we have a guy who has a rebuilding shop who builds some monster engines, stands behind his work, and his prices are more than reasonable. If you want to shoot me an email I can give you his contact info, than you can research him and check him out.I’d even be able to meet you somewhere and take you over and introduce you if you’d like. [email protected]….Wally
 

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hey bud, I live in NH as well and we have a guy who has a rebuilding shop who builds some monster engines, stands behind his work, and his prices are more than reasonable. If you want to shoot me an email I can give you his contact info, than you can research him and check him out.I’d even be able to meet you somewhere and take you over and introduce you if you’d like. [email protected]….Wally
Have no idea why I had to sign in with google in order to send in a reply, I have been a member for a few years now and never had to do that…this is the result…???m
 

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hey bud, I live in NH as well and we have a guy who has a rebuilding shop who builds some monster engines, stands behind his work, and his prices are more than reasonable. If you want to shoot me an email I can give you his contact info, than you can research him and check him out.I’d even be able to meet you somewhere and take you over and introduce you if you’d like. [email protected]….Wally
@russmatt99 I would not follow this if I were you. I apologize in advance if this member is legit, but this post displays several things that flag it as a scam. Here's another new member who claims to be a long time forum participant, but joined moments ago and has a total of 3 posts. An offer to "meet a guy" and then a private email link to talk on the side. If the shop was so good, why not tell eveyone in the posting who they are and where they are located?
 

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hey bud, I live in NH as well and we have a guy who has a rebuilding shop who builds some monster engines, stands behind his work, and his prices are more than reasonable. If you want to shoot me an email I can give you his contact info, than you can research him and check him out.I’d even be able to meet you somewhere and take you over and introduce you if you’d like. [email protected]….Wally
Definitely post the info!
 

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@russmatt99 I would not follow this if I were you. I apologize in advance if this member is legit, but this post displays several things that flag it as a scam. Here's another new member who claims to be a long time forum participant, but joined moments ago and has a total of 3 posts. An offer to "meet a guy" and then a private email link to talk on the side. If the shop was so good, why not tell eveyone in the posting who they are and where they are located?
Wally appears to have been a member before under a different sign-in (Gtowally). See this thread (post #19)...


I'm not saying it's all good, just that the email he posted shows up in the above link as well and may not be as suspicious as it looks here. Good eye for scams Jared...this one might not be. I'll leave that up to the jury.
 

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Wally appears to have been a member before under a different sign-in (Gtowally). See this thread (post #19)...


I'm not saying it's all good, just that the email he posted shows up in the above link as well and may not be as suspicious as it looks here. Good eye for scams Jared...this one might not be. I'll leave that up to the jury.
Yeah, too similar for my satisfaction. They're both gone now.

Bear
 

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One of the biggest red flags was the shop stating that they were simply going to grind the original valves. Two massive problems: The first is the original valves were two piece valves and it is almost guaranteed that putting original valves back in the head will have the head and stem separating somewhere down the line. The second is valve stems wear and a high mileage engine will have stems really out of spec. The way they list a lot of the work and parts leads me to believe that they are setting up the OP for many price increases during the build. "Oh sorry, we were only planning on reconditioning that part, but it's bad so now you have to pay more for new parts." Anyway, I'm definitely not impressed with the quote and it could be big trouble ahead.
Came here to say this also. Magnaflux or replace valves no matter what. I learned the hard way when after a serious balance and blueprint build, we put in the existing valves with new springs, seats, retainers, guides, etc. engine ran 20 seconds then popped a valve head off, boom done for another year+ since I had to get the head chamber aluminum welded and reshaped to original, plus custom Ross pistons and sleeving a couple cylinders that got chewed up. I still have the piston and valve head: aluminum pistons and heads don’t stand a chance against a stainless steel valve head. 🤬
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Price seems really high to me. From what I gather, you're looking at having the original numbers matching engine rebuilt? If so. Len Williams would be a great choice but he's not local to you. His shop is in Oklahoma. Are you pulling the engine yourself and delivering to the shop? If so, reach out to Darrin at Nitemare. His shop is in southern CT and he only works on Pontiac. His website only shows crazy performance builds, but I know for a fact that he does stock rebuilds. There was a stock built numbers matching 455 that was going back in it's bone stock 72 SD Firebird, in his shop when I picked up my heads from him last year.

Side note, I built my engine last year using a Len Williams short block and all the performance goodies and the cost was somewhere close to $12K. That was with having to buy the short block (assembled and ready to go with all new internals), and the heads (ported and rebuilt by Nitemare as well) with both components being supplied by the builders. Mine is far from stock sitting somewhere around 500hp, so yah, your price sounds high to me.
Hey Jared, thanks for the info. Engine is pulled and is at at the shop that did the estimate. It is a 67 GTO numbers matching YS code 400cc, automatic transmission. OK too far to ship it but New Haven may not be depending on his price to rebuild to stock specs. My question is on the labor hours claimed here at the local shop. Does 50 hours seem excessive for this type of build? TIA for the info.
 

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Hey Jared, thanks for the info. Engine is pulled and is at at the shop that did the estimate. It is a 67 GTO numbers matching YS code 400cc, automatic transmission. OK too far to ship it but New Haven may not be depending on his price to rebuild to stock specs. My question is on the labor hours claimed here at the local shop. Does 50 hours seem excessive for this type of build? TIA for the info.
"Does 50 hours seem excessive for this type of build?"

Does it really matter at this point since you brought it to the shop who gave you this estimate? Just sit back and enjoy and wait for its return as summer is coming and its driving season.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
"Does 50 hours seem excessive for this type of build?"

Does it really matter at this point since you brought it to the shop who gave you this estimate? Just sit back and enjoy and wait for its return as summer is coming and its driving season.
It does matter as contract was sent to me but not signed. I can always have the engine moved as there hasn't been any tear down yet. Do you think 50 hours is reasonable for a stock rebuild and dyno?
 

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It does matter as contract was sent to me but not signed. I can always have the engine moved as there hasn't been any tear down yet. Do you think 50 hours is reasonable for a stock rebuild and dyno?
I already answered that question earlier. If the engine were being built/assembled by a Nascar builder, it may take 100 hours, so 50 hours would be reasonable. If it were built/assembled by a technical school shop student, 20 hours might be reasonable.

You are asking a question that is subjective, and also somewhat of an opinion. Each shop/builder has their own techniques and processes they use and go through. Some are as thorough and meticulous as a doctor would be transplanting a new heart while others are going to whip it together like butcher cutting up beef. Thing is that either approach can work just as well and provide the same end results.

Bottom line is you are questioning how you want to feel about it - I get it. If I tell you 50hours is good, you sleep at night even though it is costly. If I tell you 50 hours is a screw-you number, you feel you are getting raped and now every step of the build you are anxious and worry and are frustrated and getting angry over the price.

If the 50 hour job fails, your really PO'd and you are contacting the Better Business Bureau and writing bad reviews on th internet. If the 20 hour job fails, you accept it better because it cost far less, and your still PO'd, but also realize you got what you paid for and now you are kicking yourself in the ass because you did not go with the 50 hour guy and you have to pay someone again to do another rebuild/fix.

If you listen to me, or any one else on the forum, or any other person outside of the forum, and things go sour - you are going to blame them because you thought you were getting a valued opinion you could trust based on "their" knowledge and experience in such matters.

I also offered you some cost affective solutions, but you are bent on rebuilding the original engine and it seems you have an issue with distance to get the rebuild done. Most would not have an issue dropping the engine into a U-haul rental trailer, or Enterprise truck rental, and dragging it to a Pontiac shop. A drive from the Boston area to New Haven is 140 miles-ish and about 3 hours. If I knew I had a Pontiac guy rebuilding my engine and his price saved me 3K, I'd be doing that in a heartbeat AND be able to sleep at night.

Bottom line is that no one can second guess what your builder states he will need time wise to rebuild the engine - only he knows and is the time he told you. Is his rebuild any better for the money than someone else? You will never know unless you have a second engine of the same rebuilt by another builder to use as a comparison base and run the engine equally over the same number of miles/years.

The engine is going to the shop, end of story. You made a decision and committed. Pulling the engine once dropped off is because you have not signed a contract not what you should even be considering. BTW, I have never in all my life had to sign a contract to have my engine built or worked. I can either get a price up front for the work I need or just pay the bill when I pick it up and be done with it. What good is a contract when you don't know what parts are or if you need them or if they are quality or not? And often times there may be additional work/parts required if something is amiss that was not anticipated - so if my shop finds an issue that was not expected, then the price may go up or I can tell him to stop at that point and not continue and pay him for his services up to that point. If I don't pay my bill with my machine shop, he simply sells my parts/engine to recover his costs which he can do legally.

Hate to sound harsh and ugly, but not my intention. Sometimes you just have to jump unknowingly and accept where you land and then deal with it. I wish I could see into the future before every choice, but then that would take the fun out of guessing and jumping into frying pans. The best lessons learned are the ones that end up poorly because we don't forget those and repeat them. It's just an engine/car, not someone's life you are trying to make a decision over.

(y)
 
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