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Discussion Starter #1
Well this just stinks!

I was told when I purchased my 1965 GTO that the "car's documentation was lost in the fire, so the usual PHS paperwork isn't available". My thought at the time it wouldn't be an issue as I would just request the documentation from PHS Automotive Services.

I received a letter from PHS stating " your vehicle is not on our microfilm. Years ago, when the information was transferred to microfilm, some of the vehicle files were omitted, others were illegible".

Very disappointing.
 

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Another excellent reason to research the car before you buy it. The car is probably the real deal, and can easily be proven as such by the Protect-o-Plate, if you have it. If not, it's a harder car to re-sell, authentic or not. If you bought it to keep it, and drive it, it doesn't matter much at all, but it's still nice to see what it came with originally if it has been monkeyed with or restored.
 

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I have always thought what would happen is something currently happened to the PHS business and their paperwork was destroyed or no longer available. Only the surviving cars with protect-o-plate would be worth any amount of money.
 

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Years ago, had not Jim Mattison been called in the middle of the night to be informed intruders had broken into his office and had he not shown up with the police and caught GM personnel red handed who broke into his office to steal all the information on Pontiac, all archived information would have been destroyed. They were there to remove micro films and documents to destroy them. Mattison and PHS who acquired all Pontiac Historical date legally and lawfully was sued by GM, they wanted the information back to destroy the documents PHS had acquired lawfully. PHS prevailed in court but part of the settlement was PHS was to drop the word Pontiac from it's title, so the letter P is now silent.

Had GM managed to destroy the data, none of us would have birth documents worth anything.
 

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Years ago, had not Jim Mattison been called in the middle of the night to be informed intruders had broken into his office and had he not shown up with the police and caught GM personnel red handed who broke into his office to steal all the information on Pontiac, all archived information would have been destroyed. They were there to remove micro films and documents to destroy them. Mattison and PHS who acquired all Pontiac Historical date legally and lawfully was sued by GM, they wanted the information back to destroy the documents PHS had acquired lawfully. PHS prevailed in court but part of the settlement was PHS was to drop the word Pontiac from it's title, so the letter P is now silent.

Had GM managed to destroy the data, none of us would have birth documents worth anything.
Especially good news when you hear that there are businesses that specialize in faking VIN numbers and data plates on Corvettes...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for all the feedback. I do have the Protect-o-Plate and the car is original, just wanted that documentation.
 

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64-67 Expert
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As good as it gets, then. I have the POP for my '65, which is a very well optioned car, so I didn't bother with a PHS for the first 25 years I had it. No POP for my '67, but it's a lot-filler, run of the mill optioned car and is a real GTO, so I've never bothered with a PHS. Owned it over 30 years as well. The '64 and '65's are very easy to fake, due to no difference in the VIN codes. The POP is the ace in the hole for sure!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I am mistaken, I don't have the POP as I originally thought. Oh well. I don't plan to sell the car, just drive and enjoy. I've done a complete break job on the car, but kept the drum breaks. They don't bother me nor do they bother my wife when she drives it. I've removed the dash and sent it out for reurbishment. Will keep it original as there are after market gauges installed. I've purchased a Pontiac vacuum gauge and will attach it to the new console when it arrives. I've also removed the seats and am having new foam installed and the springs rebuilt, upholstery is in very good condition. New carpet came with the vehicle and I'll get that installed also. Next winter will be an engine rebuild. I'd like the 389 to put out ~450 - 475 HP.

I need some help satisfying my curiosity about this car. Can I get some help deciphering the numbers that I have attached?

View attachment 50649

View attachment 50657

View attachment 50665
 

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I am mistaken, I don't have the POP as I originally thought. Oh well. I don't plan to sell the car, just drive and enjoy. I've done a complete break job on the car, but kept the drum breaks. They don't bother me nor do they bother my wife when she drives it. I've removed the dash and sent it out for reurbishment. Will keep it original as there are after market gauges installed. I've purchased a Pontiac vacuum gauge and will attach it to the new console when it arrives. I've also removed the seats and am having new foam installed and the springs rebuilt, upholstery is in very good condition. New carpet came with the vehicle and I'll get that installed also. Next winter will be an engine rebuild. I'd like the 389 to put out ~450 - 475 HP.

I need some help satisfying my curiosity about this car. Can I get some help deciphering the numbers that I have attached?

View attachment 50649

View attachment 50657

View attachment 50665
65 Tempest Lemans 2 dr Coupe built in Fremont Ca.
Lower color Mayfair Maize with Starlight black top Black vinyl interior

Cowl tag decoder:

Data Tag Decoder (datatagdecoder.com)

W-S engine 389 360 HP

You don't have a GTO, 2nd and 3rd digit in VIN# for GTO I believe would be 42
 

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YOU HAVE A GTO The GTO was an option in 1965 on the Tempest Lemans. First digit "2" is Pontiac. "37" is Tempest Lemans. "37" is 2Dr Ht 5p body. "5" is year 1965. "Z" is the Freemont, CA factory where it was built. Remaining numbers are the sequential build number.

Engine code "WS" is the 360HP tri-power engine w/manual trans. You can further validate this with head casting numbers as well as other casting numbers on the engine.

Yes, it seems it would be easier to "fake" a '65 GTO because it was an option and not a separate model line like later GTO's. I would think that the "WS" engine would be pretty indicative that you have an original GTO.:thumbsup: And if it isn't, then someone did a good job of converting it to a desirable GTO option and since it can't be technically proven or disproved with supporting paperwork at this time......its a GTO.
 

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64-67 Expert
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What PontiacJim said. '64 and '65 GTO's did not have their own exclusive VIN coding, so you need to look at other things. Your engine is un-messed with. Fremont cars tend to have the engine code stamps above the EUN, as yours does. Usually, they are above the rear section of the EUN, not scrunched in between the first numbers, as yours is, but it's legit. Fakes are usually stamped below the EUN sequence, from what I've seen. You need to look very carefully at the front fenders behind the headlights. Raise the hood and look at the inside areas of the upper parts of the fenders. GTO's will have no holes here. LeMans fenders will have a section of small holes that have been filled. Look in the trunk at the rear quarter panel emblems. Are extra holes filled in and touched up? Tempests and LeMans's had a lot more than the 3 holes for the GTO emblem. Another thing: your Data plate and VIN plates are original and un-messed with. A good thing. And finally, I've never seen or heard of a Mayfaire Maize clone. 95 % of them are Resale Red, and the other 5% are black. Mayfaire Maize, a super cool color on a '65, just doesn't appeal to the low-lifes who want to forge and flip asap. Post more pics of the complete car!!
 

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Interesting, so the 65 GTO I looked at and thought was a rebadged Lemans could have actually been a real GTO.
Looks like the only way to know for sure is if the car has the original factory invoice.
You can make holes disappear with paint and Bondo or Zolatone in the trunk.
I wonder what the percentage is of fakes to real GTOs?
 

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64-67 Expert
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As stated previously, without a PHS, the Protect-O-Plate will tell you if it's a real GTO or not and what engine it came with originally. There are a TON of fakes out there.......and they've been faked before prices went up, just for the 'cool' factor. Same way 90% of all the SS El Camino's are fake. A hood and some emblems, and viola....you are Speed Racer.
 

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Not to hijack this but two questions, 1. What year did they start useing the protector plate? 2. Did all pontiac shave them? The man who my tempest was originally owned by is of course a old man now but he is still around and his mother died a few years ago. The house is full of stuff but before I ask him to be on the look out for it I thought I'd ask if my car even would if had one?
 

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The protect-o-plate was introduced in 1963 and went through 1972. Warranty pamphlets came after the plates (1973 and later).
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I check the front fenders as you suggested and there are no holes or any evidence that any holes have been patched. I also checked the rear quarter panels and there are only three holes per side which are holding the GTO emblems

What PontiacJim said. '64 and '65 GTO's did not have their own exclusive VIN coding, so you need to look at other things. Your engine is un-messed with. Fremont cars tend to have the engine code stamps above the EUN, as yours does. Usually, they are above the rear section of the EUN, not scrunched in between the first numbers, as yours is, but it's legit. Fakes are usually stamped below the EUN sequence, from what I've seen. You need to look very carefully at the front fenders behind the headlights. Raise the hood and look at the inside areas of the upper parts of the fenders. GTO's will have no holes here. LeMans fenders will have a section of small holes that have been filled. Look in the trunk at the rear quarter panel emblems. Are extra holes filled in and touched up? Tempests and LeMans's had a lot more than the 3 holes for the GTO emblem. Another thing: your Data plate and VIN plates are original and un-messed with. A good thing. And finally, I've never seen or heard of a Mayfaire Maize clone. 95 % of them are Resale Red, and the other 5% are black. Mayfaire Maize, a super cool color on a '65, just doesn't appeal to the low-lifes who want to forge and flip asap. Post more pics of the complete car!!
 
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