Pontiac GTO Forum banner
121 - 140 of 146 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #121 · (Edited)
Now, how 'bout a couple of SS Birds ?

The 1st one was raced by Sal Piacentini, in div 1. It's a Gold '77 350 powered Formy. For the last several years it has been raced by former Stock racer, Mike Morgan, who I've mentioned. It has won class @ Indy '16 & was RU 3 times.


@ Indy '18, he was #11 @ 10.617, which was 1.233 under his index. That's pretty quick for a little 350 Pontiac, in a '77 Bird. The quickest time I remember seeing for him was 10.41 @ a div 3 race. But that was running L/SA. So, it wasn't as far under the index as that Indy time.

INDY - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #4 Order

Check it out. Mike ran a 10.414 to a 10.555 for fellow 350 Pontiac racer, Bill Rink.


Saw recently that he had it up for sale. Looked like a bargain price to me, considering the current cost to build a Pontiac SS car that will run a sec under the index.


Pic #9 is of a Bird that has Bob Michael on the door. I don't have any other info on it. But everything Bob Michael raced ran pretty good.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #122 · (Edited)
I forget 1 strong running '78 Stocker.

It was driven by Dave Edwards. Qualified near the top of a lot of Q-sheets. It was a white T/A. Don't know what happened to it. Haven't seen a white T/A running Stock, in recent years. Some class cars are sold & shipped overseas. It seems there are quite a few racers in Sweeden. That's where Scott Burton's low 10-sec '70 RAIV Bird went. Have read of a couple of other Pontiac Stockers that went there.

Anyhow, I don't have a single pic of this T/A. But, there are quite a few on the Auto Imagery site. So, I'll pic a few good ones & post links to 'em.






I'll also look up some good race & qualifying results & post links to those.

OK, right now, I'm not sure about this. But, the '78 T/A that Dave raced MAY be the same one that Bob Michael raced @ Indy, in '98. He qualified #12 @ more than a sec under, & won the M/SA class.



Whether it was the same car or not, in 2000, Dave showed up @ Indy with an L/SA '78 T/A . Qualified #5 @ more than 1.2 sec under, & got the L/SA class win. You'll notice that fellow Pontiac racers Don Holmes & Danny Ashley also picked up their class wins. That Danny Ashley '74 Grand Am is the same car that Don Turk later raced. It's still active by another owner.



He shows up again @ Indy in '02 & is #12 @ more than a sec under.


In '03, he was bumped up to J/SA & won that class. Was #17 @ more than a sec under.



Looks like he & Don Holmes together put the NHRA horsepower police into action against their '77/'78 400 engine. In '04, Dave was now running I/SA. He was still more than a sec under @ #34, but was not a class winner. Don had switched his Bird over to a '77 model. Didn't see Dave's Bird on any list after '04. I suppose he retired it.


The hp factor for the '77 base 400, in a bird, was last increased to 284hp, at the end of the '03 season. So, that definitely explains the changes in class, for '04. The factor for the other 400 was up to 290hp by '06 & still is today, for both the '77 & '78 model Birds.



Results like this is the reason Stocker guys today are so careful to NOT go quick enuff to get a hit from the hp police. As mentioned, some racers slow their cars down to prevent hp hits. That's the way the game is now played.

It was this kind of qualifying list that alerted the hp police about the 2 Pontiacs, in '03. They were #2 & #3, @ more than 1.2 sec under their index.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #123 · (Edited)
Now I wanna talk about what is probably the winningest '78 Pontiac SS Bird ever.

It was raced for many years by Ken Shawver, who later got Monte Howard to drive it for him. Ken got several Indy class wins with it & Monte got 2. AND, possibly the car's greatest achievement was being the #1 Super Stock qualifier @ the US Nationals, in 2005. It was 1.254 sec under it's index.


Some may be interested in this. Monte Howard sent me some pics & info about his experiences driving the car.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #124 · (Edited)
Well, as ya'll know, '79 was the last year for the Pontiac 400. But, they were only available in 4-speed Birds. I've never seen nor heard of one running in NHRA Stock/SS.

So, that only leaves 301 powered cars. I've already mentioned the Billy Nees/Don Himes '79 Lemans. But, there have also been a few 301T Birds that have done good. Back before they got any big hp hits, there were some #1 qualifiers, class winners, & record holders.

Neil Smedley ran one & won a Wally with it. I'll look up which race it was & post it.

#1 div 7 in '01 @ 1.510 under. No tellin how many #1's he had. I've found 3, in just a few minutes of lookin. Not gonna look for any more.


'01 Vegas Summit Nats - #1 qualifier & Stock Eliminator ! Pretty good showin for a little 301 Pontiac.


Set the P/SA nat record with it, in '03.


Rick Unterseh is the only guy I know of who has been racing one of these in recent years. He has recently bought one of the former 301T Stockers & is riggin it up for his wife to race.

These 301T parts are getting pretty hard to find. So, I'm guessing nobody else will ever try to build a 301T car from scratch. But, I've been wrong before.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #125 · (Edited)
Well, I've probably forgot some cars. If I think of others I'll add 'em to the thread.

But now I wanna start talkin about the Super Stock GT class cars.

I've read that Pontiac racer Don Kennedy came up with most of the rules which NHRA initially adopted to create this class.

It's a pretty simple & very reasonable idea. There are a lot more later model bodies that could be used to build a race car, than there are older bodies, from the Musclecar era. And, even if you find a good older body, it's likely to be WAY overpriced.

So, just allow SS racers to run the older engines, in the later model bodies. Don't matter that the same series of engines was not available in the body. Just run most any GM engine, that's listed in the NHRA guide, in any GM body, most any FoMoCo engine in any FoMoCo body, most any Mopar engine in any Mopar body, etc.

So, that means you could run a 428 Pontiac engine in any Bird or GTO, or any other Pontiac which had not even been built yet when the 428 was still in production. Could also run it in legal Chevy, Olds, Buick, & Caddy bodies. Could also run any of those brands NHRA legal engine in a Pontiac body.

Can also run later engines in earlier bodies. There's a limit to how old the body can be. I forget exactly what the oldest year is. Anyhow, there have been quite a few of these cars built, using Pontiac power. Most have probably run 400 engines. But some have run 350, 389, 428, & 455 engines. The 428 has become the most competitive Pontiac GT engine, because some Edelbrock alum heads are legal on it. That means that most any good shop could build a 428 Pontiac engine without hardly using a single GM part. The 2 quickest Pontiac powered GT cars are both 428 powered Cobalts. Both have run 8.90 or quicker.

But, I'll begin with Don Kennedy's GT cars.

His 1st was an SD455 powered 3rd gen Bird. I've read that he set some nat records with it. Best time I could find was 9.749 @ the '08 Winter Nats, which was more than a sec under.


But for quite a few years now he's been running an alum head 428 in a Sunfire body. I think he 1st ran the SD455 in it. It has run some REAL low 9's, with the 428. And it has won class @
Indy.

Here's what he said about the new car's debut.


Here's what he said in a short interview.


And here's a long interview. Gotta skip the 1st 10 minutes tho.


He won a div 7 Vegas race in '12.


Here's a video of the final round.


He was the GT/EA class winner @ Indy '20

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #126 · (Edited)
Not really sure of the best order for the rest of these GT cars.

So, I'll just start with the oldest year model I can think of. That is a '68 Bird. It belongs to long time Pontiac racer Larry Maxwell. For power, he's running a '74 Pontiac 350. Same engine Bill Rink is running in his '74 GTO. The Bird actually looks like a Stocker. That may be why he chose the '74 350, so that he could get by with smaller tires & stock type suspension.


Not sure of it's best ET. But in one of the pics it has 10.84 marked on it. It turned a 10.822 @ the '19 Winter Nats. So, it's not real quick against it's index. But hey, a nice, black, '68 Bird drag car gets my vote. :)

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #127 · (Edited)
The next oldest Pontiac powered GT car I can think of is the '74 GTO, raced by Carroll Warling.

Some may remember him from earlier in the thread. He had a record holding '74 SS/MA Lemans. He's now switched it over to GT, but, It doesn't look any different, so I won't post any more pics. BUT, he was planning to try a 428 engine with iron #216 heads. The significance of that is that those early '68 & somewhat rare #216 heads have some favorable port sizes listed with NHRA. So, more porting will be legal, with those heads. I've had some guys argue that the #216 heads were never installed on production line engines. BUT, Carroll & others have some. They apparently did come on some early '68 production line engines, and are NHRA legal.

Will have to look up some times for this GTO. Don't remember him winning anything with it.

It ran a 10.75 @ this '20 div 5 race in Kansas.

LODRS 5-5 - Super Stock Qualifying, Friday Order

Only have 4 good pics of it.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #128 · (Edited)
I suppose the the next oldest model might be an '82 model Bird.

1st time I'm aware of it being raced with Pontiac power, was when Phil Monteith had it. Petter Biondo won his 1st SS championship driving it. IIRC, that was in 1997. So, I don't have any performance numbers for it. Only have one pic of it, as the Phil Monteith "Hatari" car.

The car was then sold to Bruce Fulper.

Note: I realize that Bruce has a real bad rep in the Pontiac community. For this post, I will only consider the Bird he raced & it's performance. Don't wanna bad mouth him or have anybody else do it, here in this thread. Thanks !

Since the big story for the car, while Bruce had it, was in 2004, we can look up the performance numbers. And they're pretty decent.

@ Indy, Bruce won the GT/DA class, even tho there were 3 cars that appeared to be quicker. In C-1, the 2 quickest cars ran each other & Bruce ran the only GT/DA car slower than his. In C-2, his opponent broke on the line. In the final, his opponent slowed, for some reason. So, even tho he didn't have the quickest GT/DA car there, he IS listed as the class winner.


His qualifying time was 9.833, which was .967 under his 10.80 index.


In pic #2, it's dialed a 9.66. I'll do a search & see if I can find a lower time for it.

OK, @ the '04 Winter Nats, it ran a 9.675, which was more than a sec under the GT/CA index. That's probably the race where it was dialed 9.66.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #129 · (Edited)
Here's a couple of more '80's Birds that have run GT. The 1st one is still active.

The 1st one I call the "McCarty Blackbird". Lynn McCarty has had it for quite a while. I think Casey McCarty has driven it, in recent years. Has run mid 9's. Not sure of it's all-time best ET. I think it has used both SD455 & alum head 428 power.

@ this '21 race, it ran a 9.503, which was .897 under. It's listed as a 1987 model.


The 2nd Bird was raced by Bruce Campbell. In the 2 pics I've posted it still had the paint job that was on it when he got it. Notice on the front fender the "McKinney Racing Engines". That probably means that either Roy or Mike McKinney, or both, did his engine work. He later repainted it, with the name "TAT'R" on the doors. Don't have a good pic of that. But there is one decent pic on Auto Imagery.

https://autoimagery.photoshelter.co...XiHZ1DbEuLi4JTE4uSM9TcQYrUnEEkAIjjJjw-&GI_ID=

Here's a quote from what he sent me.

"I won the 1999 NHRA division 2 points meet @atlanta ga. Ran an old worn engine 6x 400 but still did ok. Ran the div2 national open in Montgomery Ala.don’t remember which year. Tried to get gt/ha record of 10.25 ,best it would run was 10.261, close but no cigar. Ran IHRA national event @ darlington SC,IHRA Divisonal &farmington nc (runner up). , IHRA Carolina dragway sc. (runner up). Hard to remember Dates of all races I entered, getting old and forgetful. Bruce Campbell former 2704 S/SS"

He was #8 @ this nat event.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #130 · (Edited)
This next GT Bird may have had more top 5 qualifying spots than any 3rd gen Pontiac powered GT Bird ever.

It was raced by Victor Santos, then later by Bill Kennedy, who still races it. It is 400 powered. Don't know it's best ET. But I know it ran some high 9's. When Victor had it, it was near the top of lots of qualifying lists. I'll look some up & post links to a few. Don't know when he began racing it. I found him @ #2 on this 1998 IHRA Q-list.


OK, @ the '15 Dutch Classic, Vic set a new GT/IA nat record of 9.99. Appears to have been the only Pontiac powered car to set a record @ that race.


I found lots of races where he was among the top 3 qualifiers. But I'll list 4 of his #1 races. The 1st is the '13 Richard NO race.


#1 @ '14 div 1 race. Also got 3rd place @ this race.



#1 @ '15 New England Nats.


#1 @ '15 Dutch Classic, & was SS RU. Hey, that means he was #1 AND set a new nat record, AND was SS RU @ one race. Cool ! :cool:


#2 @ '16 div 2 race. Made it to semi-final, where he got treed.


Bill Kennedy:

Found several top 10's. Will post 3 top 3's.



ENGLISHTOWN - Super Stock Final Qualifying, Session #3 Order

GT/MA class win @ '19 Mopar EL Nats.


@ that same race, he lost a round by ONE inch, according to DRC. It's tuff when you cut an .018 light, run within .004 of your dial-in, and still lose. :(


Found some semi-final finishes, like this 3rd place @ the '19 Dutch. Didn't find any wins or RU's.


From pics #4 & #5, it appears that Vic had partnered with either Dave or Dean Ribeiro, @ some point, earlier I think.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #131 ·
Seems that '91 & '92 model birds are popular for the GT class.

This one was raced by Steve Smith, followed by Scott & Brad Burton. I'm gonna separate 'em, & put only Steve Smith stuff on this post.

He won this '02 race.


Possibly his biggest claim to fame was a div 1 SS championship, during the '02 season, & also being named "Driver of the Year".


The farthest under the index I saw was 1.233 @ this Toyo Nats race. But, he qualified more than a sec under lots of times. Here are just a few of 'em.





GT/GA class win @ the '14 Summer Nats.


Don't have any pics. But here are 3 on Auto Imagery.



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #132 · (Edited)
Now for the time the Burtons have had the Bird.

It appears that they kept the same paint scheme, including the blue center stripe. Scott & Brad have both driven it. Brad won a Wally. I think this is another car that ran a 400 for a while, then switched over to an alum head 428.

It usually qualified @ around .700 to .850 under it's index. I'll post links to some where it was at least .900 under.






Brad won this one !

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #133 · (Edited)
Another nice 3rd gen belongs to Greg Meyer.

He has mentioned that he protects his combo by NOT qualifying a sec under. The car has run a 9.90, but Greg usually qualifies slower than that. I'll post links to a couple of older lists, where he was more than a sec under.



GT/HA class win @ '14 Lucas Oil Nats.

BRAINERD - Super Stock Class Eliminations Finals

#3 & GT/HA class win @ '15 Lucas Oil Nats.



#2 & GT/HA class win @ '16 Lucas Oil Nats.



#3 & GT/LA class win @ '17 Lucas Oil Nats.



RU @ '18 div 3 race.


9.986 @ '18 div 3 race.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #134 · (Edited)
There have been a few Pontiac powered 4th gen GT Birds.

I'll begin with the famous Phil Motnteith "Hatari" Bird.

I think Peter Biondo won 3 national SS championships driving mostly this car. During that process, he obviously won LOTS of div races & national events. Because of all those wins, I assume this car has probably won more races than any other Pontiac powered SS car, ever. I wouldn't even attempt to list all the wins.

There have also been several other drivers, including Sam & Sal Biondo, John Agneta, & probably several others I'm not aware of. Phil Monteith probably made a few passes in it, himself.

I think it ran a 400 for years, then switched over to the alum head 428. Phil Monteith has had a lot of success with his Hatari Birds. I think he also either supplies, or has a hand in, the engines in the Agneta & Pickett 4th gen, & the Biondo Stocker. May not be the quickest engines, but they have proven to provide reliable, competitive power, for many years now. So, hat's off to Phil Monteith, for his contribution to Pontiac powered class racing !


I've seen it listed as a '98 & a 2000, for sure. Assume that would depend on which hood/front cap is being run. Assume there has only been one car. But I'm not sure of that.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #135 · (Edited)
Leo Glasbrenner ran a Pontiac powered 4th gen, for a few years.

Ya'll may remember that Leo also raced a '68 Bird Stocker, which he still has. He has a Transmission Business, where he also builds racing automatics & sells parts for others to build 'em. He's good with the very popular metric 200's. I think they're also called a TH200.

Anyhow, I think his 4th gen ran a 455 at first, then ran the alum head 428 engine. Ran 9's. I'll look up some links to post.

@ this '13 Vegas race he ran 9.84, which was .840 under. Won GT/DA class.


'18 Winter Nats 9.562 was .938 under.


'18 Spring Vegas race - #23 - GT/HA class winner - Listed as 428 powered.


'18 Won this div 7 race in the mountains of Utah, with a .001 final round light.


'19 Pomona Finals - #18 - 9.66 - .840 under.


In 2020, he'd switched over to a late model. Don't know if anybody will race his Bird again, with Pontiac power.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #136 · (Edited)
Johnny Duncan built a 4th gen GT Bird.

It is now the Pickett & Agneta Bird. John Agneta does most of the driving. I think Phil Monteith is helping with it. Have a pic of 'em pitted together. And I have pics showing "Hatari" on it.

Someone posted this.


Greg Meyer posted that the Redbird runs a 4X head 400 engine.


'18 div 1 race - #12 - .797 under.


'21 Mopar Nats - #18 - .886 under.


Also got GT/LA class win.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #137 · (Edited)
OK, let's look at 3 small later model cars

One is the other McCarty GT car. I think it's a Grand Am. Will correct that If I learn different. I think it did run mostly the SD455, but has been switched over to the alum head 428. It ran GT/AA, before they changed the weight breaks a few years back. They've run it @ Indy a few times. I'll see what I can find to post.

It ran 9.25 @ Indy '10. But there were several GT/AA cars just a little quicker.


@ Indy last year, it was RU in the GT/EA class final, to another 428 powered GT car, which just happens to be the quickest Pontiac powered GT car, that I'm aware of.


Irvin Johns' Cobalt has gone 8.70's. It also won the GT/FA class @ Indy '19, with Todd Frantz driving.


It was @ this '21 race where it ran an 8.782, which was more than 1.3 sec under it's index.


The next quickest Pontiac powered GT car, which is also a Cobalt, belongs to Robert Cruzen. He won the GT/AA class back in '16, with an 8.90 in the class final. He's also been at or very near the top of quite a few qualifying lists.


The only pic I have of Stacy's car, was taken back in the GT/AA days. Here's a link to some pics on Auto Imagery. Looks like they painted it a dark gray.

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #138 · (Edited)
Well, as many Pontiac powered Stock & Super Stock cars as there have been, I'm bound to have missed some.

So, if ya'll know of some good ones I haven't mentioned, by all means, post your info. If you don't have pics, but the car ran at NHRA div & nat events, I may be able to help find pics of it.

The thought just came to me that I may not have mentioned the '77 Catalina Stocker that Bob Michael built. To me, it's a one-of-a-kind Stocker. And it's competitive. It won the L/SA class @ Indy last year, with an 11.895.


If ya'll have any questions about any of these cars or anything about Stock/SS racing, I think this would be a good thread to have that discussion on. I'll certainly be happy to contribute all I know. If somebody here can't come up with the right answer, I'll do my best find it. :)
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #139 · (Edited)
One thing that probably surprises a lot of those who don't know anything about SS racing is seeing a Q-jet carb on top of an 8, 9, or 10 sec SS car. I figure most expect to see a big square bore Holley type carb on top.

I always loved the Q-jet. Ran 'em on all our bracket cars. But, I'll have to admit that I WAS surprised to see 'em on so many 9 sec cars.

As far as I know, they only come in 2 venturi sizes. We call the smaller one a 750 & the larger one an 800.

Many know about the special '71 model Q-jet that had the small venturi, but no outer booster ring. It would flow more than a reg 750. There was a time when several class racers learned about this carb, & there was a rush to find 'em. But, NHRA found out about it & put a stop to it. I don't know if that carb is now even legal for the Pontiac combos it came on. I've read that besides some 455HO engines, it also came on a few 400 4-speed engines.

I assume lots of guys have removed the outer ring from their street or bracket Q-jet, in order to get more flow.

The large venturi models are legal for SD455s & '76 up, on most Q-jet equipped Pontiac engines, even some of the 301's.

I assume the Q-jet is one thing that made the Tri-Power cars really rare on drag strips around the country. The only 2 I know of that are still running Stock are Bob Michael's '62 GP & Norman Warling's '62 Cat. Both run the same 389 Tri-Power combo.

Right now, I can't think of anybody running a single AFB carb engine. But, I think I did mention that Norman ran a 421SD for a few races. I assume it has 2 AFB's.

There have also been a few guys run 2-barrel Pontiac combos. Don't know of one currently running. I wouldn't consider running a Pontiac powered Stocker that didn't have a Q-jet.

Here are some pics showing the differences in the small venturi double ring vs the large venturi double ring models, as well as 1 pic of the 455HO model which did not have the outer ring.

Note: I realize that this is "old hat" info for LOTS of Pontiac guys. But, I assume there MAY be some here who have never even heard of that 455HO Q-jet, with no outer booster rings. So, for you guys who knew, it's just review. For those who didn't, here's some new info for you.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
Discussion Starter · #140 ·
Now I have an important question for you guys.

There are a few Pontiac guys running in the Super Street & Super Gas classes. For those who don't know, S/ST has a 10.90 dial-in for everybody, & S/G has a 9.90 dial-in for everybody. 1st car to the finish line without a red light or running quicker than the dial-in wins.

I suppose it's similar to bracket racing, but also different in several ways. The cars have big scoops & look like lots of bracket cars. Hardly any engine rules.They run S/G at most all nat events. And they run both classes at most all div races.

I have pics of most of the Pontiac powered cars running these classes. SO, my question is: Do ya'll want me to include pics & info of these cars in this thread, or NOT ? I'll leave the decision up to you guys. ???

Here's 1 pic of Doug Croft's S/G Bird.
 

Attachments

121 - 140 of 146 Posts
Top