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Discussion Starter #1
Just noticed this ad on ebay for a 69 gto, makes you wonder how many people buy goats that really never came from the factory... sellers ebay ad You are bidding on a 1969 GTO title and tags, I have the PHS repot on the car that was scrapped many years ago. This GTO was a 4 speed car with a console gauge tach and clock. It was shipped to Jake Sweeney Pontiac in Ohio. If you have any questions please ask. Seller is name daddydo396
 

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Ok, I usually refrain from anything about vin swapping, engine block restamping, or frame restamping. Everytime it is brought up it stirs up a hornets nest. Genneraly speaking I feel if you have a significant part of a car and it is just too far gone to restore like a rolled over cabin, rear end collision that demollished the rear of the car, a roached frame, it is acceptable to get a replacement shell or frame that was a tempest and still call it a gto. But down out right selling a vin cut out and data plate and title is a clearly wrong and not to mention a clear cut violation of laws ( At least in California ) that explicitly prohibit this.


California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 10802 . Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or removes vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale, transfer, import, or export, is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more than twenty-five thousand dollars ($25, 000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 10750 . (a) No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the department.
(b) This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of the original vehicle identification number when the restoration is authorized by the department, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

Illegal by federal standards as well
18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers..Text to long to post here



We should document this car as being just a vin plate, data plate and title with no car actually behind it.

VIN 242379P353387


I am going to let ebay know. This just aint right......

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s-l1600.jpg
 

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Ad should be removed and seller should be hung . I find it discussing but this Is just what is advertised . Got to think many more under radar. I don't know the fix. I know there are I think two more spots Vin were used on 68/69 up gto. I believe one was under heater core cover on fire wall and other was on frame. Please correct me if wrong . This is a sad part of our hobby and some think it is acceptable . I know a close friend who lost a huge amount of money and little to no chance of ever recovering . He just took his lost and was embarrassed that he got taken . I hope.we all take a stand and if know any one doing this this drops a call to local law enforcement . The sad part is our police have too much on the plate . I'm done but hope other realize how this ruins our hobby . Doug
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It made me mad when I seen it.. I never had a problem with people cloning cars, chevelle, camaro, mustang cuda,challenger and yes the GTO.. I prefer to see cars of that era that were the muscle of those models.. (just dont mess with the vin) I hate the fact that this is been going on for a long time, nothing new, it's just someone making it public rather than hidden... I am Sure there are many out there, believe they bought the real deal..so it's probably done extremely well where as if you are not in business on restoring these cars or other muscle cars, you'll never know..
 

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Ok, I usually refrain from anything about vin swapping, engine block restamping, or frame restamping. Everytime it is brought up it stirs up a hornets nest. Genneraly speaking I feel if you have a significant part of a car and it is just too far gone to restore like a rolled over cabin, rear end collision that demollished the rear of the car, a roached frame, it is acceptable to get a replacement shell or frame that was a tempest and still call it a gto. But down out right selling a vin cut out and data plate and title is a clearly wrong and not to mention a clear cut violation of laws ( At least in California ) that explicitly prohibit this.


California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 10802 . Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or removes vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale, transfer, import, or export, is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more than twenty-five thousand dollars ($25, 000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 10750 . (a) No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the department.
(b) This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of the original vehicle identification number when the restoration is authorized by the department, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

Illegal by federal standards as well
18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers..Text to long to post here



We should document this car as being just a vin plate, data plate and title with no car actually behind it.

VIN 242379P353387


I am going to let ebay know. This just aint right......

View attachment 116417
View attachment 116419
Dead-on post, and absolutely correct. Only reason to sell GTO VIN and docs is to deceive and defraud, no other reason. This is totally different than a legitimate re-body of a valuable car where the cowl panel with VIN is welded in and many original parts are used. The ebay guy should be shut down. The only 'right' thing for him to do is to destroy the VIN tag, IMO.
 

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Man I reported it like a day ago and it is still not taken down.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1969-GTO-TITLE-AND-OTHER-TAGS-WITH-PHS-REPORT/372500418044?hash=item56bac14dfc:g:DFUAAOSw21Rb6iji:rk:9:pf:0&vxp=mtr

You folks should log into bay and report it.

Screen Shot 2018-11-20 at 3.56.40 PM.png

Only 2 hours left on it and it looks like it will sell for 30 some odd dollars .

We got the vin up here but all that does is screw the guy or gal who gets duped. Hopefully someone who types the vin in will see this thread and figure out it was a cloned
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I was hoping it would be bought by a member and then post a video of it being destroyed. This should be posted in other GTO forums as well. Why wait for someone to get duped! Preventive maintenance..
 

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Discussion Starter #8
My guess is that the persons who are making the bids are obviously familiar with the GTO, so makes you think, where else would you get information? GTO forums.. they could even be members... instead of the ad getting shut down, it should be bought, to ensure no one will get ripped of there hard earned money and a car of there dreams..
 

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Now that I think about it, if you buy the car with that vin, I am thinking you would have significant recourse because according to federal law it is illegal to swap just the vin plates. Also I looked up ebay rules and it also says it is against their policy.

Not to mention the fact that at least one persson brought it to their attention before the auction closed.. Me...
 

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Several years ago I was at a car show with a massive car corral. In the corral a guy was selling vintage data plates of nicely equipped Camaros (promoting outright deception). He also had a few Camaros on trailers all missing any sort I.D. or vin. He had it all covered.
 

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Swapping VINS was talked about in a thread not long ago. I wonder if PHS could flag this VIN . Maybe a warning that further investigation needs to be done . To me this has nothing to do with cloning . I do feel as long as your up front and do not deceive someone into buying thinking it's something it's not cloning is not a problem. But changing a VIN is as low as you go in our hobby and believe me it's excrptable practice by some member here and on other Pontiac forums. I should ad this is not just a Pontiac issue. I think we can only hope that VIN does not end up on a titled GTO, I also flagged this on eBay and have followed up on why they allowed but no response as of today. Hope all have a great holiday . Doug
 

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This will never happen to Panikmekanik's 69 Custom S.

So few remain cuz they were re-badged as GTO clones, as were LeMans & Tempests were.

We prefer rare & unique cars over mass mindless market mentality of cloning anything remotely resembling a GTO, GTX, GSX GNX, GT500, AMX, etc.

As if cloning a tiger from the cowardly lion's jeans. Should be badged "GT-NO" IMHO.

Making your car great again need not involve deciept of its original designation, nor gender.
Respect comes to those who do it well and let the car stand for what it is (or has become), not for what it resembles, or could have been.

I don't call them clones, as a clone is an living organism grown from DNA & parts of the donor.

They are Drag Queens, (or Drag Trailer Queens), not a living organism, assembled from mix-n-match parts from a graveyard, with a new era engine, Trons, ABS, etc. Not unlike Young Frankenstein's monster, unmatched, unwieldy, unreproducible, unappealing.
At least he wasn't re-badged as Lady Marmalade!

If y'all want this to end, buy the lot, punch it void & frame it for wall display, or destroy it, or send it to PHS for delisting and destruction.
 

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As long as there is a substantial premium associated with virtually identical vehicles, with the exception of an option code – this will always go on.
There is no stopping greed.
 

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FAKE Numbers ? just stuff off google

Somewhat helpful info (to me) whereas I'm car shopping ...

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-c8411_ds485894

https://numberall.com/

Quality Steel Stamps, Made in the USA - Young Brothers Stamp Works

Tags Backeast, Trim Tags Backeast, Data Plates, A.G.Backeast. We make tags for AMC, Buick, Cadillac, Camaro, Chevelle, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Corvette, Dodge, DeSoto, Edsel, Ford, Frazer, La Salle, Henry J, Kaiser, Lincoln, Mercury, Mustang, Oldsmobile

Random off the net ...
Not going to get into the deep about the restamping your motor. I know from experience that back in the 60's I had several buddies working at a Chevrolet Dealership as mechanics, They were always restamping blocks, 327, 396, 348, 409s.
When someone blew up their motor and wanted a new block, the dealer would restamp the block with the old serial number. Dealers had a special guide for the number dies, it held all the numbers to be used and spaced the numbers correctly. One blow with a heavy hammer and all the numbers were stamped.
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/30455-stamps-for-restamping-a-block/

 

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FAKE Numbers ? just stuff off google

Somewhat helpful info (to me) whereas I'm car shopping ...

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-c8411_ds485894

https://numberall.com/

Quality Steel Stamps, Made in the USA - Young Brothers Stamp Works

Tags Backeast, Trim Tags Backeast, Data Plates, A.G.Backeast. We make tags for AMC, Buick, Cadillac, Camaro, Chevelle, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Corvette, Dodge, DeSoto, Edsel, Ford, Frazer, La Salle, Henry J, Kaiser, Lincoln, Mercury, Mustang, Oldsmobile

Random off the net ...
Not going to get into the deep about the restamping your motor. I know from experience that back in the 60's I had several buddies working at a Chevrolet Dealership as mechanics, They were always restamping blocks, 327, 396, 348, 409s.
When someone blew up their motor and wanted a new block, the dealer would restamp the block with the old serial number. Dealers had a special guide for the number dies, it held all the numbers to be used and spaced the numbers correctly. One blow with a heavy hammer and all the numbers were stamped.
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/30455-stamps-for-restamping-a-block/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZY7nDtma1o
This practice was put into effect by GM on 1968 and up on replacement blocks/engines. Pontiac also did this.
 
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