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My 69 gto was a standard hard top coupe. The PO did a strange restoration too it that caught my eye and got me into Pontiacs. Currently the car is in the shop getting some work done. The owner of the shop offered a in my opinion a very fair deal for paint and decals to make the car a royal bob cat clone. I like the idea but I am unsure about having to say clone everytime someone asks about the car. Anyways you all seem knowledgeable so share some with me on this.
 

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My 69 gto was a standard hard top coupe. The PO did a strange restoration too it that caught my eye and got me into Pontiacs. Currently the car is in the shop getting some work done. The owner of the shop offered a in my opinion a very fair deal for paint and decals to make the car a royal bob cat clone. I like the idea but I am unsure about having to say clone everytime someone asks about the car. Anyways you all seem knowledgeable so share some with me on this.
It's all in what you want. That '65 Royal Bobcat Jim Wangers had and sold was a clone. It's all in what you want.

IMO: My Judge is a re-creation. I did it right though, its no cheap clone. I tore it apart and rebuilt it from the ground up. I had friends who have Judges help me. The graphics were measured and placed precisely as OEM. All parts non Judge were replaced with Judge parts. I used (well my buddy) used many concours pictures paying close attention to detail and the car was reassembled exactly like one. Color matches used. The car was very close except the manifolds were not Ram Air. It drove me berserk, I wanted a 100% match. I finally got them in. The Trans was rebuilt and the valve body specked. The only thing not correct is the block, however there are performance parts added when it was raced, the cam is of R/A standard. The power is virtually identical to my buddy's 1969 Judge. When I pulled the motor I was going to take it RaceKrafters they are local, they are in HPP all the time. I was going to have them re-rebuild the block as close as possible to a YZ. When we opened the engine up it was immaculate, looked new. My buddy built Ponchos and knows these motors, he put a less than 20K mile estimate on the motor. Why spend $$$$$ rebuilding it when it had upgrades and looked spotless?? I decided I will use the money elsewhere. We put the motor back together and reinstalled it. Suspension is not as Judge ...... big deal.
The P14 Palladium is the correct code.

I wanted a Judge in the worst way. Both times I looked... prices for what I wanted were 50kish. Would I use a 50K car as a driver? NO way. I wanted a driver. So..... for 1/2 the cost of what I wanted, I got a PHS GTO tore it apart and built it from the ground up as a Judge. NO ONE can tell the difference. It's a perfect match and in performance.

The 20K I saved? I purchased my wife a matching # 2002 WS.6.

I see clones and shake my head. MOST stop short. They apply graphics and say Judge. I laid out a game plan and built it. I saved a lot doing it, its identical to one and I DRIVE it and enjoy it. For many letting it sit in a garage and dusting it with bragging rights is fine, drive it? NO WAY... I have 100% of the fun at between 1/2-2/3 rd the cost....... I did this knowing what I was doing... took me 4 years in the off seasons but its done right or I'd not have done it.

To Clone or not to Clone..... IMO: if you do it....... do it right. You'll be glad ya did. :cheers
 

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then call it a tribute...;) Royals are even more rare than Judges, Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac in Royal Oak, MI did special dealer installed options and tuning packages, you would order your car and have it shipped to them, they would install tuning packages and in your case the stripes and the Royal badge. Royal also did the prep for magazine test cars for Jim Wangers, and were responsible for the infamous 64' 421 tri-power car that masqueraded as a 389 and went up against the Ferrari GTO in the Car and Driver tests. I see nothing wrong with cloning a car as long as you do not represent it as original for show or sale, it will not help the value and could possibly lower it compared to original.

heres an example:
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/muscle-cars-you-should-know-69-royal-bobcat-pontiac-gto-ram-air-v/
 

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:agree:agree IMO depends on the condition and originality of your car now...honestly a Royal Bobcat was just a supertune and some minor details, not a radical departure from stock or something that couldn't be returned to stock if you decided to sell or just got tired of the look. Even my car could be returned to "stock" although that would require a repaint. I honestly considered painting my car Warwick Blue or Crystal Turquoise but the wife wanted the "Judge" look. I might put the stripes on this year just to change up the look and break up all the orange.
 

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Engine wise I am there. CI wise. Gotta make up my mind on doing the engine the way royal did. Or what my original plan was. The interior would have to be changed. Currently I have 2006 gto interior installed. I like the look and I know Pontiac guys would know royal. I really do like the idea, and yes it would have to be done right. For some reason its not simple to figure out for me. Thats why I asked. Here are a few pics as requested. I am just confused on what way to go
 

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Tribute I like that. The reason I am having the difficulty with this is 1 I am from MI but live in CA. So its always a plus to have a lil bit of home with you. Second there are things I will not change. Because well growing up in MI my whole family worked for GM. I can never prove it ofcourse but its a nice romance to think my Grandfather could have worked on my stearing box at saginaw, or the eaton gears are from my mom and so on. So there is that difficulty
 

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I used to work in Berkley just a stones throw from the old Royal building. Nice looking car, as it's far from being original, i would say build what you like and want. The Royal stripes are in your face and either something people love or hate. If it was me i would just get a set of 17" x 9" Bandit rims and low profile rubber, lower it a few inches and go pro-touring as it looks to be done up nice as it is.
 

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Clones, Tributes, call them what you want, bottom line it is a car pretending to be something that it isn't. As was originally stated, you will be constantly explaining the car. Why not just do the performance upgrades without adding the fake badging? If you do the car right, you don' have any need to make people think that it is something that it isn't. They will look at your car for the build quality. JMHO
 

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I say just change the stance and a set of rims like Instig8tr said. Car is beautiful and I dig the late model interior. I would'nt put the full Royal stripes in white on it with that dark blue i think they would stand out too much. Maybe just the thin stripe down the side with the Royal badge on the end to break up all that solid color.
 

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I bought a Judge clone and removed the "The Judge" Decals since it was not a real Judge. Did keep stripes and of course the spoiler and hood tac. I might remove/change the stripe since people still ask me if it a real Judge.

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

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Clones, Tributes, call them what you want, bottom line it is a car pretending to be something that it isn't. As was originally stated, you will be constantly explaining the car. Why not just do the performance upgrades without adding the fake badging? If you do the car right, you don' have any need to make people think that it is something that it isn't. They will look at your car for the build quality. JMHO
Amen! Clones,recreations,tributes = fake!
I love it when I see a restored Le Mans, Tempest, Malibu, plain Camaro etc...
There are so many fake Judges around, I don't even check them out. I gravitate towards the nice Le Mans at the shows.
Then again....its their car so, to each their own.
 

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This debate could go on til the end of time.

Its all in what you want. I reaffirm.... if you do it do it right, people generally won't ask.

I see more Shelby GT clones out there than anything, people oogle them and rarely negatives I see as many Yenko clones as well. Most are all positives. Do the same to a Judge and the horns come out the fangs grow on many.

I appreciate all classics restored even those hap haphazardly done, not my taste but I don't lambaste. In the end its your car do with it what you want and don't worry what others think.

I debated posting what I did to mine knowing it will piss people off. Know what? I don't give a damn, SCREW YOU and the horse you road in on. I'd rather have a re-created judge done right and correct from the ground up one I did from scratch knowing how to do it and knowing Judges, I can drive and enjoy than having one sitting in a garage hauled out on a trailer taken to a show put back and left to sit until I decide to trailer it again only to enjoy showing people pictures of it because I am too terrified to drive it.

I'd put my re-creation up against many real ones. Its done that right if I chose not to identify it MOST couldn't ID it for what it is without a code book. This is why I say DO IT RIGHT or not at all. Its those who have no clue on how to do it or want to screw people on the sale of one that brings people out of the woodwork to lambaste someone for preserving a car for their own enjoyment than to appease the detractors who think they know whats right and wrong on restoring a car.

A Judge didn't come from factory with 800 HP but I see no one saying OMG he has it on the track. Whats he thinking??? It's not original what an an a$$hole. OR do i see them saying OMG he put a lemans fender on it? Other lemans parts..... hang him.

I know Jim Wangers and he looked my car over just before it was completed and HE told me how well it was done and he couldn't tell the difference before he signed it. To me that's the highest complement of all, more so than know it alls who think they know better than anyone what should and should not be done to ones own personal restoration.

Unless YOUR car is 100% original with ALL GENUINE GTO parts YOUR A CLONE too. Lighten the hell up.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Its something I never gave much thought. Untill the shop brought it up. I know their motovations done right it will drum up business. Done right customer is happy. Originally I was just going to have motor work and a few minor things fixed. Talked about it on a previous thread. And I had my mind made up. What got me asking was I never seen a royal or a royal clone (for that matter a judge either). I know if I went that rout it would expand my budget substantially. And I can live with that, and people giving grief I can live with that. I catch alot of crap already for the interior. But I love it. And thats what got me to make up my mind. I think I will just continue customizing it for me. Not to appeal to anyone else. I dont think cloning/tribute is a bad thing. Lets look at the numbers 3500 69 judges produced. You need them so my child can see at a show, and not on a computer screen. And that was what ultimately helped in the decision. My son is 4 and I let him help me work on the car. He has put a scratch on the hood, grubby paws all over it and all, but I want that I dont want to worry about him hurting a "show" car. So driveway and garage work it is. Maybe ill buy anothernproject and clone that one have it both ways.
 

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Its something I never gave much thought. Untill the shop brought it up. I know their motovations done right it will drum up business. Done right customer is happy. Originally I was just going to have motor work and a few minor things fixed. Talked about it on a previous thread. And I had my mind made up. What got me asking was I never seen a royal or a royal clone (for that matter a judge either). I know if I went that rout it would expand my budget substantially. And I can live with that, and people giving grief I can live with that. I catch alot of crap already for the interior. But I love it. And thats what got me to make up my mind. I think I will just continue customizing it for me. Not to appeal to anyone else. I dont think cloning/tribute is a bad thing. Lets look at the numbers 3500 69 judges produced. You need them so my child can see at a show, and not on a computer screen. And that was what ultimately helped in the decision. My son is 4 and I let him help me work on the car. He has put a scratch on the hood, grubby paws all over it and all, but I want that I dont want to worry about him hurting a "show" car. So driveway and garage work it is. Maybe ill buy anothernproject and clone that one have it both ways.
Like I said,, Wanger's '65 Royal Bobcat was a clone. He had no issue with it. It's good enough for him but not for some hot-shots who think a guy recreating theirs as a copy is a jacka$$? I wonder how many would have the balls to tell Wangers to his face he's an idiot for doing it?

It's yours do what you want and enjoy.

As I was getting ready to buy my '70 I found locally a Liberty Blue '69 matching numbers survivor. Good shape. I chose NOT to buy that because I would not take a matching numbers car and Judge it. That car now btw belongs to an 18 year old in our club whose father was looking for one for him when he was 15. He thanks me constantly. I know Judges and wanted one I could tear apart and build as one knowing how to do it and what to and not do. I did it in stages. To see a Car show Judge at a car show looking it over and comparing real Judges to it makes my efforts worthwhile. I do not enter mine in the Judge class. I've had Judge owners ask me how to do this or that.... and I am just a fake :) 99% of people have no clue. Of the 1% that do, 1/2 of them drive their own clones with a hybrid of other Pontiac parts on them but thats ok..........
 

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Naa not angry....... just defending what I did but I have seen some really bad cloning and understand why it angers some

..... Enjoy my day? One day its fall the next its mid summer I wish the weather here would make up my mind....... tough to adjust 55 today 95 tomorrow etc.... lol........
 
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