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We have a health care bill that is 1200 pages long. It's a bill that was written so that the average person doesn't understand it. That is a problem that is typical of most laws written by Congress.

We have a bill guarantees that 4 years from now that everyone must carry health insurance. If you don't you will be fined. It also guarantees you that a carrier can't drop you and a carrier must accept you regardless of pre-existing conditions.

We have a bill patterned after Masscare, the state of Massachusetts' healthcare law. The state of Massachusetts has seen healthcare costs rise at a rate 27% higher than the rest of the country over the last 4 years. The plan is bankrupting the state. They are scrambling to fix it right now. That's the true reason why Scott Brown was elected, the people of Massachusetts know the problems we will experience when this bill takes effect in 2014.

We have a bill that we need to raise taxes to pay for 4 years in advance of when it takes affect so that it will show a surplus in the first 10 years and make it look like it helped cut the deficit when it really busts the budget. The next 10 years it runs a deficit of as much as 1 trillion dollars.

We have a bill that causes problems for Medicare and Medicaid that have to be fixed before it is enacted or doctors and pharmacies will quit caring for those patients.

We have a President that has done backroom deals, even though he declared he would have the most transparent Presidency, to bribe Legislators to vote for a bill that will certainly mean a Republican majority in 2010 for both houses.

We have a bill that has to be "Reconciled" in the Senate because it can't get enough votes to stop a filibuster. The process of reconciliation is/was never intended for legislation like this.

We have a bill that despite offers for parts of legislation that were rejected, has no input from the other party. The Republicans were completely shut out of the process.

We have a bill that will not affect the people that voted it into law. They are now above the law and we are their serfs for them do with as they please.

What we don't have is the freedom to not carry health insurance. If you are a healthy 25 year old single male and you chose to use the money that would be taken out of your pay for health insurance for a GTO payment, you are in trouble now.

We don't have a bill that will address the real problems with the cost of health insurance. Tort reform is not in it. Until the government takes over health care and lawyers can't sue the government, we will continue to pay too much for procedures that aren't needed and for legal fees.

We don't have a bill that addresses portability and allows insurance companies to sell insurance over state lines.

We don't have a bill that the majority of Americans want, but in their every greedy nature, our lawmakers are going to pass so they can have control of another portion of our lives.

We don't have a release of water to the San Joaquin valley in California, we have a release of water to 2 districts that Obama needed a vote from. Fear the government that would steal water and starve it's population unless you act how they want you to act.

What we have is an Obamination.

God help us in this once great Christian nation.
 

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i am almost 21 years old, i don't know much about politics. but i can say is this country is F***** up ...... i am at total just like wow right now.... is this USA or USSA:shutme:(:confused
 

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I leafed through the bill all 1,997 pages. I tried to save it it but it was copy proof I did however cut and paste many passages for future reference.
The average Joe has no idea whats in it, if they listen to the lamestream media they understand this promises the world will lower the deficit and enable those who do not have HC now gain it. What they don't tell people is:

The IRS will oversee this:
16,500 NEW IRS agents will be hired.... This is the job growth promoted with this and this is the amount of people the IRS feels they NEED to:

1. Verify everyone is PAYING for healthcare
2. Make sure you file a 1099 showing you have healthcare
3. Audit EVERY citizen on a MONTHLY basis to make sure WE are complying with this mandate.
4. They will now have the authority to CONFISCATE tax refunds if you are falling short of your PAYMENT obligations.

The IRS now has a bigger intrusion in your life. Audits of people will escalate. If you owe back taxes of 15,000 or more you are in the direct line of fire as they are coming after you for sure. This I am sure will NOT affect people in the congress.

Your employer will now have an option to drop YOU from their medical plans. Employers will be penalized a mere 8% in fines if they do not offer their employees medical coverage. Your employer pays more than 12% now. It makes financial sense for them to pay 8% in fines and pocket the rest as cost savings. This will force YOU into the public sector, a clandestine plan to get everyone in a single payer system that IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL. Whats this mean? It means you will have a bureaucrat involved in you and your families medical decision making. Doctors will now be an employee of the Federal Government which means their hands will be tied. This will result in putting off necessary treatments. etc etc etc etc. The FEDS now will KNOW your medical history, prescriptions and all the privacy you enjoy now will be on a data base for all in the Government to have access to your private medical information. IN THE BILL it mandates to use Generic medications. If you are one that for whatever reason chooses NOT to use generics now it will cost you even more than it does now.

IN THE BILL it gives examples of OUT of pocket expenses. THIS is going to be a nightmare for those who do not have the money.

So what happens if you cannot afford it? Well the welfare state will GROW, the dependence on government will escalate, something this government wants, totally dependency on them. LESS choices for you which means they control more of you.

What if you choose NOT to get healthcare? You are looking at 2500 in fines or fines of 2% of your gross income, confiscating of your tax refunds possible jail time. YES POSSIBLE jail time. In other words, if you choose not to have healthcare you will be in violation of law. YOU ARE FORCED to buy a product.
States are lining up to sue over this, however this out of control federal government has shown that through back door deals, promises and threats they get what they want.

Gallop poll stated that if this HC bill passes 46% of private care physicians are looking at leaving the medical field. If this happens what do you think will happen?

This HC is more than HC. It is more of an attack on the insurance companies. President in all his pomp and circumstance speeches has reiterated over and over REFORM REFORM REFORM... this HC is about reformation.

Abortions was taken out of the bill.... I read it... it was loaded with YOU paying for a woman to have life snuffed out. This will make its way back in.

Amnesty and FREE healthcare for illegals was once in the bill. I specifically looked for it and could not find it they said they took it out. With the threats of reconciliation look for amnesty to be put back in. The DEMOS are all for it. Abortion was taken out at the last minute to sway the no votes. There is more clandestine operations in this HR Bill 3962. There are so many gray areas it reeks abuse.

If what I stated here you never heard before: You are listening to Federal propaganda and re ill informed. The will of the people was ignored.
You will pay 4 years of taxes BEFORE you see any kind of gains.

So what can you do about it? Stock up on lubrication and remember this in November.

Congresswoman Michelle Bachman stated they are working on repealing this once people vote out those who ignored the will of the people. We shall see.
 

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And how did they get members of their own party to fall in line? Those who were against the bill? By putting the screws to them. How about, "Let's take a plane ride". And magically, they're for the bill. Just one example. Does that smell like corruption? It's just the government hasn't been so blatant about it as it is today. But then again, what do you expect from someone who was a Senator from one of the most politically corrupt states in history.

Let's not forget congress is exempt from this Reform bill. They will continue to receive their current "elite" coverage that you and I cannot get.

Let me guess.
Next on the agenda will be Immigration Reform. With one swoosh of the pen we'll make 12 million illegals, legal.....

President Barack Obama
"We are not going to ship back 12 million people, we're not going to do it as a practical matter. We would have to take all our law enforcement that we have available and we would have to use it and put people on buses, and rip families apart, and that's not who we are, that's not what America is about. So what I've proposed... is you say we're going to bring these folks out of the shadows. We're going to make them pay a fine, they are going to have to learn English, they are going to have to go to the back of the line...but they will have a pathway to citizenship over the course of 10 years."

All while staying in the US......
 

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Immigration reform is needed however the word Amnesty keeps being spoken of. Originally that was in the house bill and in the senate version I believe it was taken out. No one disputes the need for reform is needed however this is a travesty. Kickbacks deals, threats... This bill and all the gray areas leaves the door open to secret bills no one will know of.

It was mentioned many times the real figures of those who do not have healthcare is in the 12-14 million range NOT 32. Once you factor out Illegals not having medical coverage that are getting it on us and those who choose not to on their own accord the 12-14 million is more accurate (according to independent studies). The actual percentage who have it is in the 70-80% range. All this for inflated figures.

My wife works with a young kid in his mid 20's. He thinks hes invincible. He doesn't want coverage, he has to pay a weekly sum. If he had his way he told her he wouldn't have it. This is an example of those included in the 32 million proclaimed. Those who choose not to have it that is factored into those who want it but cannot afford it.

Those who cannot afford it? Well they now can cause you and I will pay for them to have it. Spread the wealth.
 

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These people are all traitors. This single bill/law is a complete elimination of the 4th Amendment right.

Face it, these men should tried before the people for treason. It may sound radical/maniacal but we do still have the ability to purchase and own firearms, and are authorized by the constitution to use force and reclaim a government of the people...
 

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These people are all traitors. This single bill/law is a complete elimination of the 4th Amendment right.

Face it, these men should tried before the people for treason. It may sound radical/maniacal but we do still have the ability to purchase and own firearms, and are authorized by the constitution to use force and reclaim a government of the people...
If you head a knock on your door, its probally the FBI lol
 

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These people are all traitors. This single bill/law is a complete elimination of the 4th Amendment right.

Face it, these men should tried before the people for treason. It may sound radical/maniacal but we do still have the ability to purchase and own firearms, and are authorized by the constitution to use force and reclaim a government of the people...
The fundamental Change of the United States of America. Far left Supreme Court Justices, favors, bribes, kickbacks... the rewriting of the constitution is on. This is one promise that is being delivered.
 

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If you head a knock on your door, its probally the FBI lol
Sadly, I have a feeling that my protest will end when they send agents to my house to "force" me to purchase health insurance, much like the IRS when you refuse to pay the Constitutionally illegal income tax.
 

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The IRS are the overseers of this, THEY are the police. Agents won't come to your door but your tax refunds will be confiscated, and your paychecks will be debited. From recent talk the possible jail time was removed from the bill same as abortion however it can be put in at any time.

Unconstitutional to force people to purchase a product? The IRS was appointed as the overseers of this to skirt (a ruse) constitutional law: How? The Federal Government can impose taxes at will. The wording, watch and see: From Fines to taxation. If you choose NOT to purchase this product you will be assessed a tax.

Depending on who you listen to one says it is constitutional another says it is not, it will go to the Supreme Court... How many judges are leftists?

I don't know if anyone listens to Charles Krauthammer, he is one of the most astute people there is and a Pulitzer Prize winner. He stated: With all the projected figures NOT adding up to pay for this and reduce the debt the ONLY WAY for the FEDS to be able to do this is to institute what Europe has.... the VAT..... Value Added Tax. This means EVERYTHING will be taxed.
He further stated the Public option was eliminated because it will be imposed by the insurance companies. Insurance Companies will be an extension of government, you can add the Insurance Industry to the list of government acquisitions.

theblogprof: Video of Charles Krauthammer: Value-Added Tax (VAT) tax is next up for Obama

As the dirty little secrets of what his hidden in this comes out and how it was passed, even more people will be upset. Its a shame because the overhaul that is needed was gone about all wrong.
 

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Funny how this all eventually stems from the Federal Reserve Act of 1913...

I'm in favor of a transaction tax instead of our current system of income tax, assuming there were no "breaks" or exemptions for anyone. At least a small tax every time money changed hands would be apportioned and fair. Sure the stock traders would whine, but maybe they wouldn't play their manipulative price games in the commodities markets anymore...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Funny how this all eventually stems from the Federal Reserve Act of 1913...

I'm in favor of a transaction tax instead of our current system of income tax, assuming there were no "breaks" or exemptions for anyone. At least a small tax every time money changed hands would be apportioned and fair. Sure the stock traders would whine, but maybe they wouldn't play their manipulative price games in the commodities markets anymore...


Be carefull what you wish for.

It appears that Obama will ask for a Value Added Tax, just like Europe, to reduce the deficit. So you just might get to pay even more taxes than you already do.

The average Serf in England paid 35% of his earnings to the Lord. Well by the time you are done with gas taxes, state sales tax, state income tax, federal income tax, property tax, cigarette taxes, alcohol taxes, import taxes, social security taxes, medicare and medicaid taxes, license fees and tolls for roads, by the time you are done with everything, the average American pays more than 40% of their income in taxes. A a national sales tax and we are much worse off than the Serfs of England that was basically a slave to the Lord.

Try to not pay a tax and watch what happens. We are owned by our government.

Reality is that we need to shed government and pay off our debt. Then we need to shed taxes and watch our prosperity rise.

Why do we need a department of education? Each state has their own. Why do we need a national endowment for the arts? Let the arts support themselves. Why do we need a department of energy? They were created with a goal of reducing our dependence on foriegn oil and all that has happened under their watch is an increase.

Find ways to make the department of defense more efficient. Charge countries like Afganistan and Iraq for our military service. Japan, Germany, Korea and such too. Hey if they don't want to pay they can fund their own military and we'll use ours to protect our southern border.

Sell off land that the Federal government owns to stimulate economic activity. You will reduce the debt and people will do things with the land and create jobs and tax revenue. Reduction of the debt would decrease interest too.

Welfare should be a helping hand, not a way of life. I think a 5 year maximum span of assistance and a 7 year life time benefit allowance is extremely generous. Use the savings in future payments to offer job training. Require people receiving assistance to take drug tests. Require people receiving assistance to do public works also. I think staffing congressional offices would be a good start.

Seriously, except for the military there is no need for the federal government to be larger than the largest state government. States provide all the public assstance we need and the duplicity of service costs way too much.

Have all the senators appointed by the state legislatures. This would eliminate the need to campaign and the special interests would be cut out. Maximum term in the senate would be 2 terms. Maximum in the house would be 4 terms. Government was meant to be public service, not a career. Let's provide a 401k for our elected officals but this pension for life crap after one term needs to go to heck.

We need to quit looking to the government to solve our problems. We need fiscal responsibility. We need integrity. We need public service.

:mad: rant off :mad:
 

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I would be in favor of a transaction tax if we didn't have to pay an arbitrary income tax anymore. Then nobody could complain that they were getting taxed a different percentage than the next guy. It favors neither the rich or the poor; it's simply a skimming every time money changes hands, like a sales tax. The rub would be to require religious and non-profit organizations, research facilities, farms, schools, and certainly private businesses to pay it just like everyone else.

Of course I disagree with how the till is being spent... the infrastructure in this country is terrible (I see roads, bridges, and dams that could use some TLC almost every day), yet it's important that we maintain military presence in any country with more than 1000 people. Fed loans/treasury bills were issued and spent to alleviate the debt of private investment firms, rather than eliminate the root problem, which is private debt.

I agree about much of these programs being the responsibilities of the state, but State's Rights were pretty much lost with the Civil War, unfortunately. A return to State's Rights would encourage more economically self-sufficient communities/regions and more domestic and local manufacturing.


I've also heard that up to 80% of your money spent pays a tax either directly or indirectly... that's fun.
 

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Since you have a copy of it can you do me a favor? Check and see what disabled veterans are required to do. Do we need to pay for insurance as well, or are we exempt since we already have health care?

The reason I ask is because those of us who get our health care from the VA for service connected issues have heard that we too would have to pay. The rub of it is the VA would turn it over to the insurance, they would deny it because it is service connected, and we crippled and mental veterans would end up paying roughly half of our disability check to the insurance just to have then defer everything to the VA.

You think you have it bad, try being on a fixed income for the rest of your life, unable to work, and having to give a big chunk of your already minimal pay go to a worthless insurance company. We cant go out and make more, we cant have a business or other income in more than a few instances, so it leaves some of us in a really crappy position if they just use us to subsidize the lazy people who have not earned what we have through our sacrifice.

You think you could survive on somewhere between $1500 and $2800 per month? Then have them take a substantial portion of it for no good reason? Please check for me, ok?
 

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I'm wondering what they'll do for the Amish... or Jehovah's witnesses. I'm surprised there aren't hardcore religious groups denouncing the program.
 

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I'm wondering what they'll do for the Amish... or Jehovah's witnesses. I'm surprised there aren't hardcore religious groups denouncing the program.
According to the local papers here, Amish are exempt from this. They have their own health plans within their sect.

As far as the VA I would think you are already under the care of the FEDs? EVERYONE will be paying each other's health care now. From the guy who took care of himself most of his life to maintain a healthy lifestyle to now paying for the schmuck that has been infesting himself with dope his whole life, to those who refused to get health care in the first place, to those who are required health care if they visited an emergency room.

People griped they had to pay insurance companies for premiums. Now they will be paying the Federal Government. Insurance companies deny or approve you for services, now a bureaucrat will be between you and your doctor. As you age certain services will be closely examined to see if you qualify.

Like your privacy with your doctor? You are losing it. You will be in a data base in Washington with someone having access to all your private information. You will be used in statistics for measuring ailments etc. Your medical history will be an open book for those who access it. HEPA you say? HEPA will not totally protect you from electronic monitoring. Remember this is the Federal Government.

The IRS? They will be the police. You say screw it I am not participating? Do not expect to receive your yearly Tax Refund. It will be confiscated. The IRS will be auditing EVERYONE on a monthly basis to make sure you are paying your taxes to support this. OH, you have health care through your employer? That's ok, as long as your employer doesn't opt to drop your insurance and pay a fine that is less than the employee coverage plan they have now, you will be covered BUTTTTTTT, along with your weekly medical deduction you will notice more federal income tax being deducted to pay for those who don't have health care. So now you are paying for yours and everyone else's. Remember: We're gonna spread the wealth around. How do you like working Overtime to help pay for others?

Oh lest not forget... over and above your increase in federal income taxes a nifty little roughly 1500 a month being deducted for your Long Term Care for when you are older. You know, when you get older and need care, you will have paid in an exorbitant amount to help yourself, AND others. It is projected you will be paying upwards of 240 a month on top of tax increases. You will have an option however to opt out of this. BUT if you don't know about this you will have it automatically deducted. I wonder how many know about this?

Oh remember all the talk about the VAT? Value Added Tax? Europe is paying 19% taxes ON EVERYTHING to help pay for the health care over there. Think it isn't coming here? Really think the dog and pony show that took bribes, kickbacks, and threats to pass this is going to reduce the deficit when not a single math scholar said the math adds up will do what it was promoted to do? Those who wanted this nanny state that were not really paying attention, I wonder if they are now.
 

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I highly doubt the American people as a collective are going to just sit there and let the government break their backs and confiscate all of their income.

People without money get hungry.

Hungry people are the most likely to incite riots.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Welcome to Hope and CHANGE.
Not quite sure about the change part. I think we definately have that, but it's not what we were promised nor what we want.

Remember when Ronald Reagan was president?
At that time, we also had Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.
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Now, we have Obama, no hope, and no cash.
 
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