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You're right it does flip flop depending on the light, my last picture is under 5K florescent lamps....whatever color mine is I'm keeping it because I get more compliments on the color than anything else.
I haven't looked lately for touch up paint, but here is a page that shows some of the Pontiac paint codes from '65. I also get a lot of comments about the color, usually along the lines of "my dad had a car that same color!"
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You're right it does flip flop depending on the light, my last picture is under 5K florescent lamps....whatever color mine is I'm keeping it because I get more compliments on the color than anything else.
Just ordered a 1oz bottle of Palmetto green so we'll see if that's right 馃槈
 

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I haven't looked lately for touch up paint, but here is a page that shows some of the Pontiac paint codes from '65. I also get a lot of comments about the color, usually along the lines of "my dad had a car that same color!"
View attachment 145728
Yup I looked up the charts and guess I missed that color when I was looking for paint 4 years ago...thanks for the help and very nice car 馃憤
 

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The problem with "clone" vs "not-clone" is that the line gets blurry. Like your instance, once parts are swapped what defines a clone? If you have a rust bucket GTO that uses a good Lemans as a donor, it becomes more of a LeMans than a GTO by the time you're done, even though it has a GTO vin. Add in the complication of people vin swapping and unless you have a air tight paper trail and history of owners you never really know what you're buying. I bought a clone because of this, at the end of the day the parts are the same. You're paying for 242 pedigree. The fake Rolex argument doesn't work because the fake Rolex isn't the same parts as a real Rolex. A restored clone GTO and real GTO will have the same parts, the same parts will be used to restore both and the frame/panels and everything else came from the same production facility to begin with. Why pay more for the same thing? Don't get me wrong, I understand that pedigree plays a role in value. A sword proven to be owned by George Washington will be worth a lot more than the exact same sword that wasn't owned by him. I'm just not wealthy enough or stupid enough to not care about the price difference, so I'm happy with all the parts and no pedigree.

When people ask if mine is a clone, how I answer usually depends on my mood and how long I want to talk. If I'm in a hurry or don't feel like talking, it's real. If I don't mind answering questions, it's a clone. I find it rude to ask so I don't mind giving them a bullshit answer. Maybe I'll ask them if that's their real hair or if his wifes boobs are real lol.

Yes, if I ever sell it it will be advertised as a clone.

Edit
I think it's also a big difference in the type of person you are. Some people REALLY care and the car culture is a big part of their life. Others don't care, don't put their cars in shows and aren't bothered by it. My recommendation is that unless you are trying to win trophies at shows, don't worry about what other people think. It's your car, what you like and let the haters hate :)
I really like your point that the same Pontiac parts solves the fake Rolex comparison. I like the provenance sword analogy to increase value of verified GTO's. I want to throw another consideration into the ring. What about when PMD intentionally confused the GTO with the GT-37? The GT-37 could be considered the opposite of a clone. In order to get around high insurance costs for new GTO owners, PMD created something that was the same without the GTO name badge. The GTO cost more to insure (and higher sticker price) than a less expensive T-37. Instead of creating a huge option "package" like new cars today, PMD let people order all the GTO good stuff without the GTO name badge on a GT-37 and save sticker price and insurance, a poor man's GTO.

If PMD had a reflective rally stripe with a 455 for a station wagon, it could have been a GT-36 (36 = wagon body style). So I created a 1 of 0 production GT-36 wagon that isn't a clone of anything. A couple of weeks ago I posted it over in Showcase.

I learned the value of the rare cars (GT-37's) the hard way back in the 1980's. I thought the GT-37 should be more valuable as it is considerably more "rare". Seems the rest of the world prefers pedigree/provenance vehicles. I am glad both can exist and to those who want to insist one is better than another, it's just their opinion.
 

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To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don鈥檛 get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else鈥檚 ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a 鈥69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc鈥, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn鈥檛 have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don鈥檛 plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?
First, why didn't you go to the DMV and get a VIN from them to document your car using your registration and the numbers on the frame?

I get the '68 body, but you also used the '68 doors with the vent windows, right? '68 has different tail lights, rear bumper, and side marker lights, right?

So it may be a true '69 GTO, but it is also pretty far from near original, so what is it really? At the Norwalk Pontiac show there was a top notch '69 Convertible. The owner was straight up and called it a "Frankenstein". He said nothing in the drive train was original, the car was in poor shape and he cobbled it together with other parts, then painted it a color he liked, not the original color. He said he gets a lot of flak when he goes to a show where the "purist" attend, but he did not care because he built the car the way he wanted and drives it regularly putting quite a few miles on it every year - he and his wife simply enjoy the car as un-original as it is. Said he probably had 15K into because he did not try to restore it.

My problem with "clones", "tributes", and LS swaps are that they are not what they seem to be and few will openly admit what the car truly is. I go to many car shows and you would think that every 1964-66 Pontiac that left the factory was a GTO and had tripower and 4-speed. I am good with any tri-power 4-speed car, but why do most have to change a Tempest or Lemans into a GTO? The argument that the GTO is an option or based on the Tempest/Lemans line anyway - is a lame argument. People do the GTO clone to get more money in a sale. Yep, you can PHS document most cars and know it is not a GTO, but they still pull more $dollars than its born as name, Tempest or Lemans. I am not impressed when I read "frame off and every nut/bolt replaced and all parts were NOS in turning this Lemans/Tempest into a concours GTO tribute." It was done because of the money it can fetch versus "frame off rotiserie rebuild with every nut/bolt replaced and all parts were NOS in turning this Lemans/Tempest into a concours example of the its big brother the GTO." You won't get the $dollars invested in a Lemans/Tempest restored to factory as you will a GTO clone/tribute car - period.

I like different and that's why my Lemans will remain a Lemans in body, but the rest is resto-mod with basically very little that will be factory. I hardly ever see a Lemans, let alone a Tempest, at a car show. I might be looking at several, but they all say GTO in appearance. But this is also true of any manufacturer brand, the big engines/4-speed, posi, and rebadging simply makes money sense when value comes into play.

But on the whole, it is your car. Do what you want just as I am doing. If the car is done "right", those looking at it may expect to see a GTO because it is what many know, but a well done Tempest/Lemans will still bring a lot of interest crusing down the road or at a car show. And those GTO and GTO clones/tributes hate to get stomped on by a Tempest or Lemans. ;)
Have a 65 Le Mans ragtop that somebody put GTO badging on. Reversing that back to Le Mans in the rebuild.
 

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To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don鈥檛 get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else鈥檚 ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a 鈥69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc鈥, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn鈥檛 have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don鈥檛 plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?
My 68 Lemans has an authentic 68 GTO hood
somebody gave me (they were rebuilding their GTO and had a donor car for extra parts). I want to put a wing on the trunk too, only because it looks nice. All Lemans badging will always remain. This is my car only, so I don't care what others think. Be proud of yours, you've earned it just from the hrs of work you've put into it.
 

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My 68 Lemans has an authentic 68 GTO hood
somebody gave me (they were rebuilding their GTO and had a donor car for extra parts). I want to put a wing on the trunk too, only because it looks nice. All Lemans badging will always remain. This is my car only, so I don't care what others think. Be proud of yours, you've earned it just from the hrs of work you've put into it.
I would have to have a GTO hood on my Lemans as well, but I am running without a hood. Nothing like looking down a GTO hood - or other hood scoops. I think the real issue comes in with the badging change and then promoting the car as a GTO due in part to the badging change as well as the sheet metal and/or interior changes. Keep all the Lemans/Tempest badging and add some of the GTO items isn't an issue in my book because then I know it is a born Lemans/Tempest and you "upgraded" a few items that would seem more like an option that should have been available on the Lemans/Tempest - and you are not misrepresenting the car as something it was not born as.
 

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here my take and a little history

in 1994 i bought a 68 400/4sp GTO ram air ii for $800. it was a rust bucket but she ran like a scalded ape. over the next 18 months or so i drove the wheels off that car, she went everywhere. now prior to my goat, i had other really cool cars. my first car was a 57 belair 2 door hardtop, 327/4spd. second was a 67 "duece" 350/350 with an offenhauser single four tunnel ram, next was my 68 riviera with the 430... ive also had a 68 convertible stingray 427/4pd, a 74 340 duster, 91 stealth twin turbo and others not so cool (my current DD is a 09 smart cabrio)

of all those cars, i miss the GTO the most. again i bought it in 94 and drove it for a year and a half give or take. the clutch went out and it got parked and i bought a new nissan truck because, according to my mother, i needed a "reliable" car. a few weeks later i was attacked in a bar parking lot by 6 guys, one of which worked me over with a base ball bat. put me in shock trauma icu for 9 weeks. when i got out there was a long road of rehab. in the meantime my 94 nissan PU was repossessed. my gto needed a clutch, one of my girlfriends busted out the windshield with a maglight when my other girlfriends visited me in the hospital :cool: and i managed to lose the keys to it. i cried the day i sold the car to buy something i could drive since i only had $7.47 to my name after all the rehab was over, i couldnt fix the goat. to make matters worse i only got $500 for it and the guy that bought it parted it out and cut up the rest. i ended up buying a rusted out 68 f100 that would throw itself into reverse every time i would make a left hand turn it was so rusted out. i drove that POS for the next 18 months until i bought my 93 c1500 4.3 5spd short bed for $14,000 with $4500 down and a 24.9% interest rate. i always said one day i would buy another GTO when i had the extra money.

in the court trial for the guy with the bat, was ordered to pay $16,612.20 in restitution. of that money, i saw $25....

until last week...

unbeknownst to me, MD parole and probation had been collecting the money for the last 25 years but since i had moved, they didnt know where to send it. a few months ago, my father got as letter from a lady at P&P asking if he was related to me or knew me and got in contact with me, and last monday (9/6) i got a check for the 16k...

so i went looking for a 68-69 gto...

well... yeah... 16k is no where enough to get one that runs, drives, stops and turns... i started looking at other "cool" cars, but everything made these days look like something my mother would drive, especially the "new" gto... it looks like my mothers cobalt...

then on facebook i found a 69 lemans, listed as a 350/400, with a 10 year old frame off resto that had sat for a few years for $13,500. after talking to the seller and looking at her, shes now in my driveway and cost "me" 12k...this past monday (9/13) i drove her home...

she has a gto hood, tail lights and bezels, grill, valance, tach on the hood, slap shifter, some type of shift kit, edelbrock sp2 intake, dual feed holley 750, "pontiac" embossed aluminum valve covers, and GM front disc brake conversion. needless to say, i love this car as much as the previous owner did, if not more!!

my intention is to build a clone out of her, shes nearly there now, and frankly, i dont care what anyone says about her not being a "real gto"... shes not my old gto as much as im not the same person i was 25 years ago...I am ok with that and thats ALL that matters

if i can live with the fact that im not the 145 iq "memory like a steel trap" man that i used to be, i can live with the 373 vin... if YOU cant, thats your problem...
 

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Broomstick, I am with you. That Lemans/GTO will be awesome and the history behind it is a country song. You need to get a Nashville songwriter and collaborate on one with that!

who cares about the badging anyway,you could take it all off and make it smooth, or get some chrome letters and rename it 鈥.鈥淏orn Again GTO鈥濃..

Just have a blast with it, you have the right attitude!
 

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To be honest with you, the only time that a clone vs real GTO truely matters is when it comes time to sell the car, so I don鈥檛 get the nerve of people badmouthing someone else鈥檚 ride because that person prefers the styling of a GTO versus a LeMans or Tempest. After all, the GTO started as an option became its own model. Hell, I have seen LeManses that were ordered from the factory with almost every GTO option (except hideaways), including the GTO hood with tach. I even know a guy whose father ordered a Tempest with the endura bumper, GTO hood, and disc brakes. If you knew the right dealer, you could build a Tempest or LeMans with whatever options you wanted. Same options, same steel, different VIN.
The main reason it irks me is what happened to my car. It started its life as a 69 GTO, but after an unfortunate incident with a tree the cab was smashed. I was able to find a guy selling a solid body from a 68 LeMans (only the body, no frame and no front end) and was able to put I back together. I was the only body in the area, that was even slightly affordable. So now my car has a 鈥69 front end, suspension, frame, interior, etc鈥, but with a 68 cab, dash, doors and trunk. The VIN got smashed when tee tree fell, and technically the VIN was for a 69, not a 68, so it wouldn鈥檛 have worked anyway. Now, technically it would be considered a 68 GTO clone with Ram Air, but was born a true 69 GTO. I guess technically it should be considered a 68/69 LeMans GTO hybrid. Now I must hear people badmouth my car because I rebuild my goat after an unfortunate accident. I don鈥檛 plan on ever selling my car, so who cars if the VIN says 242 or not if I am not trying to deceive people to get more money out of them? It is my car after all, and styled the way I wanted and could afford, so who has the right to tell me I am wrong?
First..its your car to do with as you please. If you want to change it to a GTO or rebuild a wreck GTO, you have every right to. I had a 65 LeMans sedan that I actually made a GTO. Got a date code correct WT 389, Date code correct M20,including springs, suspension and everything you get when a GTO is ordered. Actually put everything in the car original GTO GM as if it came from the factory that way. My Placard at car shows said 65 LeMans GTO. When I sold it I advertised it as a LeMans, GTO option added. No secrets. So except for the VIN the car now was really a GTO in every sense of the name. And I got a price for the car close to what a GTO would cost. It was that nice. By the way, the car was sold in record time to guy that fell in love with the car. So to me the moral of the story is do what ever makes you happy without trying to deceive anyone. It will always be what it is.
 

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"GTO" is short for "Gran Turismo Omologato" translated to English as "Grand Touring Homologation". I.E. made from a bunch of non standard parts. So by definition wouldn't a GTO "clone" actually be a homologation of non standard parts, and by definition a "Gran Turismo Omologato" thereby meeting the true definition of GTO?
 

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Broomstick, I think we can all appreciate your story and the chance to fulfill your dream again. And happy to know you are well enough to be able to do it after the baseball bat incident. Good luck...we are here for you.
 

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Broomstick, I think we can all appreciate your story and the chance to fulfill your dream again. And happy to know you are well enough to be able to do it after the baseball bat incident. Good luck...we are here for you.
I was thinking the price broomstick got his LeMans for was really good. Great buy if the car is solid!
 

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I was thinking the price broomstick got his LeMans for was really good. Great buy if the car is solid!
Not a spot on Bondo in her!!! I just got to figure out some electrical issues and put the carpet and door panels in.

Any idea why the front turn signals don't work but the back do? Or why the gas gauge drops to empty when the headlights are on, which incidentally are hi beam only, click off the hi beams and they all go out...
 

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I'm sorry you had to go through that horrible time...glad you're back, usually things like that lead to a ground issue, just an idea.
 

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Well I don't think my car is Palmetto either, seems to dark.
You need to do a spray-out. Using a brush doesn't cut it as the metallics as well as the pigments just won't flow right. This results in the most perfectly matched formula looking like a totally different color.
 

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You need to do a spray-out. Using a brush doesn't cut it as the metallics as well as the pigments just won't flow right. This results in the most perfectly matched formula looking like a totally different color.
I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.
 

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I suppose but I just bought the cheapest size 16.00 for 1 oz. I did use a drop on a rocker chip and it still seems to dark, maybe I'll get a spray can of it thanks.
I had my Dodge Magnum touched-up. I used the paint left over to brush-touch a couple of spots. Not even close.
 
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